President same as chairperson for enforcing rules?

[Guest Jenny]

I see a lot of mentioning that a chair person in a meeting is the one who enforces the rules. But if we have a president and not a chairperson is that the same thing? Do they have the same role?

If so, what is to be done when a president cannot maintain order during a board meeting, or fails to recognize when a role has been broken?

What if the president does not even know the rules that are obligated to enforce? How does one insist that they become familiar with them enough to enforce them without seeming like a jerk?

[Edgar Guest]

The President of an organization presides at meetings (i.e. he chairs the meeting) of the general membership. The presiding officer of a board (or a committee) is usually called the Chairman (or Chairwoman or Chairperson or, simply, Chair) if for no other reason than to avoid confusion with the president of the organization (though the same person often holds both offices).
 
You can temporarily remove the president from the chair or you can remove him from office (see FAQ #20).
 
Or you could get a copy of RONR In Brief and slip it in your president's Christmas stocking.

[Hieu H. Huynh]

RONR says, "The presiding officer of an assembly ordinarily is called the chairman when no special title has been assigned... In organized societies the presiding officer's title is usually prescribed by the bylaws, that of president being most common." (p. 448)

 

As previously suggested, getting a copy of RONR In Brief for your president is a good idea. Maybe even for yourself. And the rest of the board. How about getting everyone to join this forum as members and keep coming back here to post questions?

 

Lastly, here's some advice from RONR - "any presiding officer will do well to bear in mind that no rules can take the place of tact and common sense on the part of the chairman." (p. 449)

[Gary Novosielski]

And when any member notices  (when the chair apparently does not) that a rule is being broken, it is appropriate to raise a Point of Order.

[Guest Jenny]

Can only board members raise points of order?

Or can association members do that even after the "homeowner comment/open forum" period is over?

I have found it extremely frustrating to watch things go awry after the 'free speech' period is over, Ive seen the following:

Board members interrupting each other

Plainly demonstrating how ill-prepared they are to discuss or vote on issue.

Repeat factual information incorrectly during discussion/debate or state completely wrong information as fact.

Can anything be done about this as it's happening by a non-board member while in a meeting?

[Shmuel Gerber]

Can only board members raise points of order?

Yes.

 

Or can association members do that even after the "homeowner comment/open forum" period is over?

No.

 

I have found it extremely frustrating to watch things go awry after the 'free speech' period is over, Ive seen the following:

Board members interrupting each other

Plainly demonstrating how ill-prepared they are to discuss or vote on issue.

Repeat factual information incorrectly during discussion/debate or state completely wrong information as fact.

Can anything be done about this as it's happening by a non-board member while in a meeting?

 

No, not while in a meeting.

[Guest Jenny]

Is there ever any opportunity to talk to them before the meeting starts just to give information about a topic that will last longer than 5 minutes?

[Richard Brown]

Is there ever any opportunity to talk to them before the meeting starts just to give information about a topic that will last longer than 5 minutes?

That will depend on whether any of the board members are willing to talk with you before the meeting starts. You can also probably ask that you or your issue be put on the agenda and that you be given additional time to make your presentation. (I'm assuming from your five minute statement that guests who want to address the board are limited to five minutes).

 

As to the other problems you mentioned (not following the rules, a disruptive non-board member, etc), it is up to a board member to raise a point of order about a breach of the rules or decorum or for the chairman to do it on his own.  You and the other non-board members are there essentially as guests and have no rights to do anything or even to speak except as allowed by your rules or bylaws or by the board. 

 

You (the members) can also "throw the bums out" and elect new board members at the next election.

 

And you may have the right to actually remove board members and officers who aren't doing their jobs properly.  The procedure for removing board members and officers might be spelled out in your bylaws.  If not, you might look at FAQ # 20 for starters:  http://www.robertsrules.com/faq.html#20

 

And you can always contact the president/chairman and other board members individually and express your concerns with the hope that they will run a tighter ship in the future.

[Edgar Guest]

Is there ever any opportunity to talk to them before the meeting starts just to give information about a topic that will last longer than 5 minutes?

 

Since this is apparently a homeowners' association, I suspect you know where they live. Bring a casserole.

[Guest Jenny]

Since this is apparently a homeowners' association, I suspect you know where they live. Bring a casserole.

Members are required to state their name and address before speaking in the open forum period, but board members are not. Board members do not make their email addresses or phone numbers known. I feel as if I go to their home (if I knew where it was) this might be seen as harrassment?

So basically what I getting is, board members are sort of untouchable, except through the election or removal process?

[Guest cm]

I share your frustration, Jenny. I am on a board with a president who does not want to read up on the rules and takes no action when people are out of order other than sometimes getting out of order himself. I have printed out sections of rules and handed them to him before meetings but they just go ignored. I suspect if we truly want change in cases like this, we would have to run for the position ourselves. I see no way to force them to abide by the rules. 

 

[Edgar Guest]

I feel as if I go to their home (if I knew where it was) this might be seen as harassment?

 

That's what the casserole is for.

[jstackpo]

Some casseroles I have been given would DEFINITELY count as "harassment".

[Edgar Guest]

Some casseroles I have been given would DEFINITELY count as "harassment".

 

Homemade apple pie? Chocolate-chip cookies? A case of beer? The deluxe edition of RONR?

[Josh Martin]

I feel as if I go to their home (if I knew where it was) this might be seen as harrassment?

This is beyond the scope of this forum, but I would generally just trust your own judgment on this matter. You know the board members better than we do.

So basically what I getting is, board members are sort of untouchable, except through the election or removal process?

No, not at all. The membership could adopt motions censuring the board for their actions, or adopt motions instructing the board on proper behavior during meetings, or whatever. The board is subordinate to the membership, so the membership can do a great deal, although you as an individual can't do too much.

With that said, however, if the board ultimately refuses to listen to the membership, then yes, the only solution is to replace the board members with people who will do their job properly (or maybe talk to a lawyer, but that's beyond the scope of this forum, and probably expensive).