Guest Robert Hartigan Posted January 9, 2015 at 04:41 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 at 04:41 PM I belong to a band booster board and am the Parliamentarian. The problem that I have is we seem to cant get a quorum at our general meetings. Our bylaws state that there needs to be a majority of the board and 10 members present (board members not included in the ten). We cannot make decisions without a quorum. How can we change the requirements if we are not getting a quorum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted January 9, 2015 at 04:53 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 at 04:53 PM How can we change the requirements if we are not getting a quorum? You can't. Have you tried offering refreshments? Free beer will usually get me to show up. You might send a notice promising that the meeting will be brief and that the only business that will be conducted will be to amend the bylaws to change the quorum requirement. Stress the importance of doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Harrison Posted January 9, 2015 at 04:55 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 at 04:55 PM The short answer is you can't. However, stay tuned for the "the law is made for man" answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted January 9, 2015 at 05:05 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 at 05:05 PM How can we change the requirements if we are not getting a quorum?You have been given the correct answers per RONR. However, General Robert, in his book "Parliamentary Law", published in 1923, did suggest a method. I think I copied it (typed it out) and saved it as a Word document a while back. I'll try to find it. As Chris Harrison suggested, "stay tuned". I imagine others will chime in, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted January 9, 2015 at 05:16 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 at 05:16 PM I belong to a band booster board and am the Parliamentarian. The problem that I have is we seem to cant get a quorum at our general meetings. Our bylaws state that there needs to be a majority of the board and 10 members present (board members not included in the ten). We cannot make decisions without a quorum. How can we change the requirements if we are not getting a quorum? How many members are on your board? Are you achieving a quorum in board meetings? What is the vote requirement to amend the bylaws? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted January 9, 2015 at 05:25 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 at 05:25 PM You have been given the correct answers per RONR. However, General Robert, in his book "Parliamentary Law", published in 1923, did suggest a method. I think I copied it (typed it out) and saved it as a Word document a while back. I'll try to find it. As Chris Harrison suggested, "stay tuned". I imagine others will chime in, too. If you find the citation in PL, please pass it along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted January 9, 2015 at 05:48 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 at 05:48 PM If you find the citation in PL, please pass it along.It's question 107 on page 452 of "Parliamentary Law". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted January 9, 2015 at 05:52 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 at 05:52 PM . . stay tuned for the "the law is made for man" answer. Though this particular quorum requirement doesn't seem very onerous (especially since most, if not all, of the booster club members presumably live in the same area). Assuming (as Mr. Mervosh asks) the board can achieve a quorum for its meetings, it seems there's a problem getting ten (other) members to show up. Unless the band is very small, that doesn't seem unreasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted January 9, 2015 at 06:44 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 at 06:44 PM You have been given the correct answers per RONR. However, General Robert, in his book "Parliamentary Law", published in 1923, did suggest a method. I think I copied it (typed it out) and saved it as a Word document a while back. I'll try to find it. As Chris Harrison suggested, "stay tuned". I imagine others will chime in, too. There may be a solution well within the rules, which I'm sure would have made the good General much happier, assuming some facts line up Mr. Hartigan's way. We'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted January 9, 2015 at 07:50 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 at 07:50 PM It's question 107 on page 452 of "Parliamentary Law". Question 107 on page 452 of "Parliamentary Law" is not a question dealing with failure to obtain a quorum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted January 9, 2015 at 08:19 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 at 08:19 PM Technically, you are correct. It deals with the inability of the organization, due to changed circumstances, to obtain the physical presence of 75 percent of its members to approve an amendment to its bylaws as was required by the existing bylaws. I view the inability to obtain a quorum as being an essentially similar situation and that the solution proposed by General Robert seems appropriate in this situation as well, assuming, of course, that the organization has first made reasonable attempts to obtain a quorum. What is the alternative? As a practical matter, what is an organization facing the inability to obtain a quorum due to changed circumstances to do? Simply fade away into the sunset? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Robert Hartigan Posted January 9, 2015 at 08:43 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 at 08:43 PM There are seven board members; President, Treasurer, Secretary,three Vice Presidents, Junior High Representative. I am the parliamentarian which in a nonvoting member on the board. We usually have all of the Board members present at the meetings but usually only get 5 - 6 other members to the meetings. We are a very small band only 45 students. If we don't have a quorum then how can we amend the bylaws? that is really my question. We are in Texas and it is not like a small town (in geographical area) it covers probably 75 square miles but the population is around 2500 and alot of the people work in the larger cities which is a hour away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted January 9, 2015 at 08:53 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 at 08:53 PM We are a very small band only 45 students. If we don't have a quorum then how can we amend the bylaws? that is really my question. And the answer, as stated, is that you can't. Again, I think your best option is to let the members know that the current quorum requirement is crippling the organization. Schedule the meeting at the most convenient time and place. Does the band give an end-of-year concert? Schedule it then. Graduation? Schedule it then. When you do amend the bylaws, considering changing the fixed number (e.g. ten) to a percentage. Also consider dropping the requirement that a minimum number of board members attend a meeting of the general membership. If they want to show up they'll show up, if they don't, it shouldn't bring the meeting to a halt. Or, If you kept the number at ten but didn't exclude board members from that count would, that work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted January 9, 2015 at 08:55 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 at 08:55 PM There are seven board members; President, Treasurer, Secretary,three Vice Presidents, Junior High Representative. I am the parliamentarian which in a nonvoting member on the board. We usually have all of the Board members present at the meetings but usually only get 5 - 6 other members to the meetings. We are a very small band only 45 students. If we don't have a quorum then how can we amend the bylaws? that is really my question. We are in Texas and it is not like a small town (in geographical area) it covers probably 75 square miles but the population is around 2500 and alot of the people work in the larger cities which is a hour away. If the Board has the authority to accept resignations of its officers (you can read your bylaws and advise them on this), and if the quorum for your board meetings is a majority of the entire board, and you have a quorum present, suggest that 6 board members resign, and vote on all 6 resignations at one time. You'll be left with one board member, and 6 new non-board members ready to go for your meeting where the bylaws are to be amended. If you can bring in four more non-board members, quorum achieved and the bylaws can be amended to reduce the quorum number to one that fits your organization. New board members can be voted in as well. Just make sure each action along the way is bylaw compliant because no one here has read them. If this isn't possible, beer and martinis to draw in a crowd sounds good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted January 9, 2015 at 09:00 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 at 09:00 PM Just make sure each action along the way is bylaw compliant because no one here has read them. They're short four members in attendance with a band of 45 students in a town of 2500. I'd go with the beer (and martinis?) over any parliamentary shenanigans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted January 9, 2015 at 09:02 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 at 09:02 PM They're short four members in attendance with a band of 45 students in a town of 2500. I'd go with the beer (and martinis?) over any parliamentary shenanigans. I prefer my shenanigans with martinis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted January 9, 2015 at 10:21 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 at 10:21 PM How can we change the requirements if we are not getting a quorum? And the answer, as stated, is that you can't.I disagree, but I do agree that RONR does not provide a solution, at least not in so many words. The solution suggested by Mr. Mervosh, which is technically, though perhaps not spiritually, within the framework of RONR, is certainly an option. Mr. Guest offered some other good options for obtaining a quorum. You really do need to make a herculean effort to obtain a quorum, at least for the purpose of amending the quorum requirement in your bylaws. This is all assuming that your bylaws really do provide that board members do not count towards a quorum. If your little group is incorporated, and I doubt that it is, state corporation law might provide relief as such laws often provide for reduced quorum requirements or for certain actions that can be taken in the absence of a quorum after a certain number of unsuccessful attempts at obtaining a quorum. I found my file with General Robert's recommendation to a group that was in a similar situation. Their problem wasn't in obtaining a quorum, but in obtaining the physical presence of 75 percent of their members to vote on a bylaw change as required by their then existing bylaws. He suggested a work-around which would at least comply with the spirit, if not the letter, of the bylaws. However, I'm not going to post his recommendation here as I don't believe your situation is that desperate or impossible to solve if a personal appeal is made to get enough members to ONE meeting so that you can amend the bylaws to a more reasonable and obtainable quorum requirement. The solution that General Robert suggested should truly be a last resort. Do as George Mervosh and Edgar Guest suggested and make an all-out effort to get enough members to ONE meeting to amend the quorum requirement in your bylaws. Make a personal appeal.... phone calls, etc..... to the members to be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g40 Posted January 9, 2015 at 10:37 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 at 10:37 PM If your "band boosters" is anything like most other such organizations, I am sure there are "factions", perhaps based on instrument played. Such "factions" can become very "worked up" about certain changes in policy. So, figure out the most vehement "faction" (let's say the saxophones) and spread the word that the school system will, perhaps, cut the number of sax players allowed in the band OR charge a higher fee for "reed" instruments, or something like that. Have such a controversial topic on the agenda - along with food and drink - and I'll bet you get a quorum. Since you have 7 board members, an alternate idea is to have each board member recruit two NEW booster members that MUST attend a meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted January 9, 2015 at 10:49 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 at 10:49 PM How can we change the requirements if we are not getting a quorum? You can't. The short answer is you can't. And the answer, as stated, is that you can't. I disagree, but I do agree that RONR does not provide a solution, at least not in so many words. So what, exactly, do you disagree with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted January 9, 2015 at 10:59 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 at 10:59 PM So what, exactly, do you disagree with?Your blanket statement that you can't change the quorum requirement if you can't obtain a quorum. Read Question 107 and the answer by General Robert on page 452 of "Parliamentary Law" and perhaps you'll understand. I think the same principle and solution would apply to the inability to obtain a quorum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted January 10, 2015 at 12:10 AM Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 at 12:10 AM Read Question 107 and the answer by General Robert on page 452 of "Parliamentary Law" and perhaps you'll understand. I think the same principle and solution would apply to the inability to obtain a quorum. Thanks, but, as it happens, I don't have a copy of "Parliamentary Law". So I guess I'll have to take Mr. Honemann's word that it has nothing to do with the inability to obtain a quorum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted January 10, 2015 at 12:13 AM Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 at 12:13 AM Your blanket statement that you can't change the quorum requirement if you can't obtain a quorum. Read Question 107 and the answer by General Robert on page 452 of "Parliamentary Law" and perhaps you'll understand. I think the same principle and solution would apply to the inability to obtain a quorum.I don't think these situations are really so similar. In the situation described in Q & A 107, the assembly has a quorum, but cannot attain enough members to adopt an amendment to the bylaws. In this situation, the assembly cannot obtain a quorum. Such an assembly cannot properly conduct any business, except for a handful of procedural actions. (I'm also not sure whether General Robert's answer in Q & A 107 was suggested to be proper or simply practical.)If the assembly were to amend the bylaws to change its quorum requirement without a quorum, and there is nothing in the bylaws or applicable law which permits such, the amendment is null and void and can be challenged at any later time with a Point of Order and/or Appeal. It's possible it could also be challenged in the courts.Now, if the assembly has no other option, and if the organization is unanimously (or at least very close) in agreement with this strategy, and if the assembly has no litigious members, perhaps the consequences of this action will not be so dire, as everyone will just "look the other way." Nonetheless, it remains my opinion that the action will not be in compliance with RONR or the bylaws.Mr. Mervosh's solution may be a possibility, and if so, that solution seems preferable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted January 10, 2015 at 12:18 AM Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 at 12:18 AM Mr. Mervosh's solution may be a possibility, and if so, that solution seems preferable. But not, I trust, preferable to getting four more members to attend one meeting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted January 10, 2015 at 02:55 AM Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 at 02:55 AM After several diligent but unsuccessful efforts to obtain a quorum in order to amend the bylaws, I would quite happily and with great confidence take my chances with General Robert's suggestion on page 452 of Parliamentary Law and with the Courts. Please take note of the portion of that sentence that precedes the comma. Does no one else have a suggestion as to what this group (or any group) should do if it really is unable to obtain a quorum? Just fade away? And do what with the money in the treasury? After all, they can't vote to dissolve or to do anything with the money, right? Since you have 7 board members, an alternate idea is to have each board member recruit two NEW booster members that MUST attend a meeting.Let's hope that new members don't have to be approved by a vote of the general membership. btw, I am not discounting Mr. Mervosh's suggestion....but it has its own set of problems, unless the board is empowered to accept resignations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted January 10, 2015 at 08:26 PM Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 at 08:26 PM But not, I trust, preferable to getting four more members to attend one meeting? Well, that is obviously the best solution, but it would appear that, for some reason, that is considerably more difficult than it sounds. Does no one else have a suggestion as to what this group (or any group) should do if it really is unable to obtain a quorum? Just fade away? And do what with the money in the treasury? After all, they can't vote to dissolve or to do anything with the money, right? Let's hope that new members don't have to be approved by a vote of the general membership. We might have other suggestions to obtain a quorum. If new members do not need to be approved by a vote of the general membership, adding new members would be one possibility. The only solution within RONR for an assembly which is unable to obtain a quorum is in a situation where all members of the assembly are present, but there is still not a quorum. If the members are simply unwilling to show up to meetings, there is no workaround within RONR. As you have suggested earlier, there may be a solution within applicable law. It is correct that, without a quorum, formally dissolving is also not an option, at least so far as RONR is concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.