Andy Travis Posted January 15, 2015 at 01:21 AM Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 at 01:21 AM On p. 353 of RONR it lists the standard order of business. My question is, does the reading and approval of minutes come before or after the adoption of the agenda?I can't find anything in RONR where it says that you include in the minutes that the agenda was adopted. Am I correct in assuming that there is to be no mention of the agenda in the minutes even if it is adopted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted January 15, 2015 at 01:27 AM Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 at 01:27 AM Am I correct in assuming that there is to be no mention of the agenda in the minutes even if it is adopted? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted January 15, 2015 at 01:29 AM Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 at 01:29 AM On p. 353 of RONR it lists the standard order of business. My question is, does the reading and approval of minutes come before or after the adoption of the agenda? The adoption of an agenda is not included in the standard order of business because if an assembly uses the standard order of business, it does not adopt an agenda. In fact, I don't think RONR addresses this question at all, because in assemblies which customarily adopt an agenda, they do not approve minutes at the first meeting of the session (because the meetings are more than a quarterly interval apart, so a board or committee is authorized to approve the minutes). So this issue should very rarely arise. For what it is worth, in my experience for assemblies which meet at least as frequently as quarterly and also regularly adopt an agenda (which is most of them, due to misconceptions on this subject), adoption of the agenda happens after approval of the minutes. I can't find anything in RONR where it says that you include in the minutes that the agenda was adopted. Am I correct in assuming that there is to be no mention of the agenda in the minutes even if it is adopted? No. A motion to adopt an agenda is a main motion, so it should be included in the minutes, even if the motion is defeated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Travis Posted January 15, 2015 at 01:47 AM Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 at 01:47 AM If there is any deviation from the standard order of business as described in RONR, then the agenda is adopted because it isn't following the standard order of business?What about assemblies that meet monthly, adopt the agenda, and approve the minutes at the next meeting? Would the reading and approval of the minutes go after the adoption of the agenda? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted January 15, 2015 at 01:53 AM Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 at 01:53 AM Please try again with your first sentence -- I'm having difficulty with it. Minutes first, then agenda. That is because before you adopt "your" agenda, you are following the RONR standard order of business. And the RONR order of business doesn't include adopting a "special" agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted January 15, 2015 at 01:56 AM Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 at 01:56 AM If there is any deviation from the standard order of business as described in RONR, then the agenda is adopted because it isn't following the standard order of business? "It is customary to adopt an agenda or program for each session in organizations that do not hold frequent regular meetings, and at conventions and other sessions that may last for several days (see 59). This is also frequently done when, for any reason, neither the standard order of business nor a special order of business established by rule of the organization is practical or applicable." (RONR, 11th ed., pg. 372) So yes, an assembly which customarily uses the standard order of business might use an agenda for a particular meeting because the standard order of business is insufficient. If the standard order of business is not suitable at all for an assembly with regular meetings, it is usually better to adopt a special order of business instead, customized to the needs of the assembly. The assembly will then have a new default order of business for its own needs, and can once again adopt agendas only when this order of business is insufficient. What about assemblies that meet monthly, adopt the agenda, and approve the minutes at the next meeting? Would the reading and approval of the minutes go after the adoption of the agenda? The point is that, contrary to popular belief, assemblies which meet monthly should generally not adopt an agenda at every meeting. They should follow the standard order of business or a special order of business adopted by the assembly. As I have noted previously, I do not believe RONR answers the question of whether the reading and approval of the minutes should happen before or after the adoption of the agenda, because a situation where an assembly does both of these things in the same meeting should rarely arise. In my own experience, however, assemblies which meet regularly and adopt an agenda for every meeting (notwithstanding RONR's advice on this subject), generally adopt the agenda after the reading and approval of the minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted January 15, 2015 at 02:00 AM Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 at 02:00 AM In my own experience, however, assemblies which meet regularly and adopt an agenda for every meeting . . . generally adopt the agenda after the reading and approval of the minutes. Indeed. And I can't help but wonder why Mr. Travis thinks this is a big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Travis Posted January 15, 2015 at 02:07 AM Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 at 02:07 AM Indeed. And I can't help but wonder why Mr. Travis thinks this is a big deal.I'm just trying to be as precise as possible and follow RONR but small assemblies whose members don't even bother to read RONR even though their by-laws state that is how meetings are to be run can be very frustrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted January 15, 2015 at 02:09 AM Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 at 02:09 AM Welcome to the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted January 15, 2015 at 02:11 AM Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 at 02:11 AM I'm just trying to be as precise as possible and follow RONR but small assemblies whose members don't even bother to read RONR even though their by-laws state that is how meetings are to be run can be very frustrating. Don't sweat the small stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Travis Posted January 15, 2015 at 02:12 AM Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 at 02:12 AM Welcome to the club.I'm trying to do the best I can with people who haven't/won't read RONR. So I probably will have questions on advise as to how to best handle a situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted January 15, 2015 at 02:12 AM Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 at 02:12 AM I'm just trying to be as precise as possible and follow RONR but small assemblies whose members don't even bother to read RONR even though their by-laws state that is how meetings are to be run can be very frustrating. Yeah, in that case, ignore most of what I wrote for now and just tell them to adopt the agenda after the reading and approval of the minutes. The fact that they probably shouldn't be using an agenda at all might be a battle for another day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Travis Posted January 15, 2015 at 02:13 AM Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 at 02:13 AM Don't sweat the small stuff.This I'm trying to learn that but need reminding of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Travis Posted January 15, 2015 at 02:15 AM Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 at 02:15 AM Yeah, in that case, ignore most of what I wrote for now and just tell them to adopt the agenda after the reading and approval of the minutes. The fact that they probably shouldn't be using an agenda at all might be a battle for another day. I think they shouldn't adopt the agenda and just use it as a guideline.Am I correct in saying that the reading of the minutes is finishing up something from the previous meeting and that's why the minutes are read before moving on to the new agenda? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted January 15, 2015 at 02:18 AM Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 at 02:18 AM I think they shouldn't adopt the agenda and just use it as a guideline. Well, you're half right. And batting .500 ain't bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Travis Posted January 15, 2015 at 02:22 AM Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 at 02:22 AM Thanks everyone. See you at the next hot issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted January 15, 2015 at 03:21 AM Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 at 03:21 AM I think they shouldn't adopt the agenda and just use it as a guideline. Well, you're half right. And batting .500 ain't bad. Really? This seems like a completely reasonable suggestion to me, if the agenda follows the standard order of business anyway. "The presiding officer may find it helpful to have at hand a memorandum of the complete order of business, listing, under headings (2) and (3) as explained below, all known reports which are expected to be presented, and under headings (4) and (5), all matters which the minutes show are due to come up, arranged in proper sequence or, where applicable, listed with the times for which they have been set. The secretary can prepare, or assist the presiding officer to prepare, such a memorandum. In this connection, regarding the practice in some societies or assemblies of providing each member with a copy of the expected agenda in advance of a meeting, see page 372." (RONR, 11th ed., pgs. 353-354) "In some organizations, it is customary to send each member, in advance of a meeting, an order of business or agenda, with some indication of the matters to be considered under each heading. Such an agenda is often provided for information only, with no intention or practice of submitting it for adoption. Unless a precirculated agenda is formally adopted at the session to which it applies, it is not binding as to detail or order of consideration, other than as it lists preexisting orders of the day (pp. 364ff.) or conforms to the standard order of business (pp. 25–26, 353ff.) or an order of business prescribed by the rules of the organization (pp. 16, 25)." (RONR, 11th ed., pg. 372) Am I correct in saying that the reading of the minutes is finishing up something from the previous meeting and that's why the minutes are read before moving on to the new agenda? This seems like a perfectly reasonable explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted January 15, 2015 at 06:01 AM Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 at 06:01 AM Am I correct in saying that the reading of the minutes is finishing up something from the previous meeting and that's why the minutes are read before moving on to the new agenda? This seems like a perfectly reasonable explanation.As good as anything else I've heard..... and, come to think of it, I don't think I've ever heard of ANY reason for approving the minutes first..... other than the fact that RONR says that's the way to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmuel Gerber Posted January 15, 2015 at 11:16 AM Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 at 11:16 AM As good as anything else I've heard..... and, come to think of it, I don't think I've ever heard of ANY reason for approving the minutes first..... other than the fact that RONR says that's the way to do it. Except that it doesn't. And in RONR In Brief, the sample agenda lists "Adoption of Agenda" before "Reading and Approval of Minutes" (p. 16). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted January 15, 2015 at 02:47 PM Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 at 02:47 PM What about assemblies that meet monthly, adopt the agenda, and approve the minutes at the next meeting? Would the reading and approval of the minutes go after the adoption of the agenda? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hieu H. Huynh Posted January 15, 2015 at 05:10 PM Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 at 05:10 PM On p. 353 of RONR it lists the standard order of business. My question is, does the reading and approval of minutes come before or after the adoption of the agenda?I can't find anything in RONR where it says that you include in the minutes that the agenda was adopted. Am I correct in assuming that there is to be no mention of the agenda in the minutes even if it is adopted? I think it makes sense to have the adoption of the agenda before the reading and approval of the minutes. The agenda is a list of items of business in the order in which they are to be taken up. One such item of business is the reading and approval of the minutes. Also, since the assembly is taking action on the agenda by adopting it, a copy of the agenda would be included in the minutes for that meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted January 15, 2015 at 05:18 PM Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 at 05:18 PM Except that it doesn't. And in RONR In Brief, the sample agenda lists "Adoption of Agenda" before "Reading and Approval of Minutes" (p. 16).Hmm, so it does.... as an "example of an agenda". But, if that's a rule, why doesn't RONR say it? It does make sense that the agenda could be adopted first, and that the first item on that agenda would be approval of minutes, but it doesn't say that anywhere in RONR. I thought RONR is the authority, not RONR in Brief. RONR seems to stress the fact... in several places... that approval of the minutes should be the first item of business. Mr. Martin, Mr. Novosielski and I all three seem to have been under the impression, from RONR, that approval of the minutes should occur before the adoption of the agenda. If adopting the agenda should occur before the minutes of the previous meeting are approved, it would be nice if RONR said so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted January 15, 2015 at 05:30 PM Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 at 05:30 PM If adopting the agenda should occur before the minutes of the previous meeting are approved, it would be nice if RONR said so. " In cases in which an agenda is adopted, usually this is done at the outset of a session and the agenda is intended to cover the entire session." RONR (11th ed.), p. 372 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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