Charge to attend meeting

[Guest Tina]

Can members at a regular membership meeting vote to hold an Annual Meeting at a restaurant and then tell the members they must order a food item? It was stated that it was at the restaurants request that everyone attending order something from the menu, in lieu of charging the Club a room rental fee. In the past the club has paid for a room out of the clubs general funds and members were not required to purchase food to attend.

 

Bylaws state "Those members who have paid the required dues, fees and assessments in accordance with these bylaws, who are not suspended and are in good standing with The American Kennel Club, shall be members in good standing." The only fees a member must pay according to the bylaws are the annual dues and if you are a lifetime member dues are waived.

 

I referred the members of the club to look at page 572 of the 11th edition of Roberts Rules as I believe this may address the issue. 

 

Any information is greatly appreciated.

 

 

[Chris Harrison]

I would also point the members to RONR p. 644 ll. 22-28. 

[Richard Brown]

Can members at a regular membership meeting vote to hold an Annual Meeting at a restaurant and then tell the members they must order a food item? It was stated that it was at the restaurants request that everyone attending order something from the menu, in lieu of charging the Club a room rental fee. In the past the club has paid for a room out of the clubs general funds and members were not required to purchase food to attend.

This was discussed at some length in a thread a few months ago.  I will try to find it.  Hopefully, someone will find it and provide a link to it.

 

It is my opinion that requiring members to purchase a meal in order to attend a meeting is not appropriate unless it is provided for in the bylaws.  I question whether a standing rule or special rule of order would suffice without authorization in the bylaws.

[Richard Brown]

Tina, I found the thread I was looking for, but it is not precisely on point.  It deals with assessing members without email a surcharge for being sent notices and the newsletter by postal mail.  It also contains a discussion of charging for meals, but there was not as clear a resolution of the meal issue as I thought.  robertsrules.forumflash.com/index.php?/topic/23522-electronic-correspondence-and-non-tech-members

[Rev Ed]

So, you don't even want to order a cup of coffee?  But, I do not necessarily believe that this is a fair option, but if the majority of members agree to do this, it's hard to argue that it's not want the members want to do (unless it's only a majority by virtue of a single - or handful - of votes.)

[Josh Martin]

Tina, I found the thread I was looking for, but it is not precisely on point. It deals with assessing members without email a surcharge for being sent notices and the newsletter by postal mail. It also contains a discussion of charging for meals, but there was not as clear a resolution of the meal issue as I thought. robertsrules.forumflash.com/index.php?/topic/23522-electronic-correspondence-and-non-tech-members

This issue is addressed more directly here, and it seems more clear that a member cannot be required to purchase a meal or pay any other fee as a condition for attending a meeting of the society, unless specified in the bylaws. There may be some wiggle room for a convention, but that doesn't seem to be the situation here.

[jstackpo]

Another bit of wiggle space is the phrase from the A-K-Clubs bylaws: "paid the required dues, fees and assessments in accordance with these bylaws"

 

Whether the restaurant bill is a "assessment..." is probably a matter of bylaws interpretation, which takes the problem out of our hands, once we have pointed you to page 588.

[Josh Martin]

Another bit of wiggle space is the phrase from the A-K-Clubs bylaws: "paid the required dues, fees and assessments in accordance with these bylaws"

 

Whether the restaurant bill is a "assessment..." is probably a matter of bylaws interpretation, which takes the problem out of our hands, once we have pointed you to page 588.

It seems to me that the language in question is merely stating that the members must pay the dues, fees, and assessments required by the bylaws, not that the membership can make up any dues, fees, or assessments that it pleases, so I don't think this provides any wiggle room.

[Richard Brown]

This issue is addressed more directly here, and it seems more clear that a member cannot be required to purchase a meal or pay any other fee as a condition for attending a meeting of the society, unless specified in the bylaws. There may be some wiggle room for a convention, but that doesn't seem to be the situation here.

Thanks, Josh.  That is actually the thread I was looking for.  I thought the issue was more clearly settled than the thread I found indicated.

[Gary Novosielski]

It seems to me that the language in question is merely stating that the members must pay the dues, fees, and assessments required by the bylaws, not that the membership can make up any dues, fees, or assessments that it pleases, so I don't think this provides any wiggle room.

 

Not so far, no.  But elsewhere in the bylaws, there could be a provision that the membership/board/other may, from time to time, set the level of assessments and fees.

 

So we're back to interpretation of the bylaws considered, as always, in their entirety.

[Thomas Ralph]

I do think trying to apply a bylaws clause about payment of dues to a requirement to purchase something at the AGM is bending things rather out of shape.

[Edgar Guest]

Can members at a regular membership meeting vote to hold an Annual Meeting at a restaurant and then tell the members they must order a food item? It was stated that it was at the restaurants request that everyone attending order something from the menu, in lieu of charging the Club a room rental fee.

 

The restaurant merely requested that everyone purchase something from the menu. Who told the members that it was a "requirement"? Was there a vote? Did the president (or the board) decide this on their own?

 

Sometimes the best way to test a rule is to break it. Show up at the meeting and don't buy anything.

 

By the way, if this is an "off night", I'm sure the restaurant will be happy if 75% of the members order something. Heck, I'd probably drink enough for two! But not because I thought it was a "requirement". Just because it would be the only way I'd be able to get through the meeting.

[Tom Coronite]

Well, maybe the restaurant requested it the way my wife requests that I do things.

[Guest Tina]

Thank you all for the information, I will take a look at the threads that Josh and Richard provided. I have looked at pg 588 and in fact I have had the occasion in the past to use that to get clarification on a bylaw. 

 

However, I feel in this instance our bylaws are very clear and given the statement sent by the Secretary to members that specifically states "you must order a food item" I believe the information on the top of page 572 would apply. I have brought this to the attention of the membership and been told by one member I am taking the wording on 572 out of context.  Am I?  I view this as adding an additional assessment on members to be able to attend a meeting. In years past we have had members attend the Annual Meeting for the meeting portion and to vote, not for dinner.

 

 

The restaurant merely requested that everyone purchase something from the menu. Who told the members that it was a "requirement"? Was there a vote? Did the president (or the board) decide this on their own?

 

Sometimes the best way to test a rule is to break it. Show up at the meeting and don't buy anything.

 

By the way, if this is an "off night", I'm sure the restaurant will be happy if 75% of the members order something. Heck, I'd probably drink enough for two! But not because I thought it was a "requirement". Just because it would be the only way I'd be able to get through the meeting.

 

Yes Edgar, apparently this was motioned, voted and approved at the membership meeting held in January. This is a snip from our bylaws that I am going by that I believe proves that the motion made at the January membership meeting would not be proper. (I understand you can not interpret bylaws for me, this is just for reference to explain my position)

 

"Section 3) Dues a) Each member must pay, within the time and on conditions set by the Board, the dues, fees and assessments in amounts to be fixed from time-to-time by the Board, provided however that amounts of any fees or assessments must be approved by the membership and recorded as changes to the Club bylaws. In any year when the Board has not acted to change the dues by August 31st, the dues for the current year shall continue in effect for the following year. The Board is authorized, in its discretion, to set the dues for Household/Dual memberships at an amount less than twice the dues for one Individual membership."

 

There has been no amendments to the bylaws and there is a process in place to do that which would not have been followed at the January meeting since notice of bylaw amendments has to be sent to the membership at least 2 weeks in advance along with the announcement of the meeting date and time. No notice was given, this was just a motion made on the spot at the membership meeting.

 

Hmmm hope I am being clear.

[Edgar Guest]

Yes Edgar, apparently this was motioned, voted and approved at the membership meeting held in January.

Sometimes the best way to test a rule is to break it. Show up at the meeting and don't buy anything.

[Richard Brown]

Read the two threads that Josh and I referred you to, especially the one by Josh.  Based on what you have said, I don't think the members are obligated to purchase food.  I do not believe that a motion adopted at a meeting is sufficient for obligating members to pay for something not authorized in the bylaws.

[Richard Brown]

 

Sometimes the best way to test a rule is to break it. Show up at the meeting and don't buy anything.

Or buy one of whatever the cheapest item on the menu is.  But, to me, that's caving in to what I firmly believe is an unauthorized and illegal requirement.  I like Edgar's suggestion.

[Guest Dorene]

This issue is addressed more directly here, and it seems more clear that a member cannot be required to purchase a meal or pay any other fee as a condition for attending a meeting of the society, unless specified in the bylaws. There may be some wiggle room for a convention, but that doesn't seem to be the situation here.

I'm a member of the club in question.  I've read the above referenced link.  I believe our situation is not the same.  The restaurant requested that each person order a food item - no member was told that they would be denied admittance to the Annual Meeting if they don't buy a food item. 

 

In 9 prior years of our clubs annual meetings, there was only one occasion when any members attended only a portion of the meeting to vote and not partake of the meal portion. 

 

On a side note, our club has a history over the years of holding meetings at venues that require members to pay a fee assessed by those in charge of the venue.  This has gone unquestioned by any member for years, it has just been an accepted past practice.

 

I have the opinion in that I don't see a meal cost as a fee assessed by the club onto the members.  That being the case, as others have said here, that would take us to pages 588-589 in RONR 11th edition.  So I guess the membership would have to clear this up.  Of course, that is just my opinion too   However I'm always willing to listen to reason......

 

 

 

 

The restaurant merely requested that everyone purchase something from the menu. Who told the members that it was a "requirement"? Was there a vote? Did the president (or the board) decide this on their own?

 

Sometimes the best way to test a rule is to break it. Show up at the meeting and don't buy anything.

 

By the way, if this is an "off night", I'm sure the restaurant will be happy if 75% of the members order something. Heck, I'd probably drink enough for two! But not because I thought it was a "requirement". Just because it would be the only way I'd be able to get through the meeting.

 

As far as the vote that was made on this, the vote was only on the meeting location.  The vote was made by a quorum of the membership.  There was not a vote to require anyone to purchase a food item. 

Unfortunately the restaurants request got relayed in writing to the members that they must order a food item.  I chalk it up to poor wording choice by a novice secretary.  Of course no member can be forced to purchase a meal.  In attempt to remedy the 'perceived wrong', the secretary has made an offer to the membership to purchase a light meal for any member that may be in financial difficulties and sees the request by the restaurant as a hardship.

[Josh Martin]

I'm a member of the club in question.  I've read the above referenced link.  I believe our situation is not the same.  The restaurant requested that each person order a food item - no member was told that they would be denied admittance to the Annual Meeting if they don't buy a food item. 

 

In 9 prior years of our clubs annual meetings, there was only one occasion when any members attended only a portion of the meeting to vote and not partake of the meal portion. 

 

On a side note, our club has a history over the years of holding meetings at venues that require members to pay a fee assessed by those in charge of the venue.  This has gone unquestioned by any member for years, it has just been an accepted past practice.

 

I have the opinion in that I don't see a meal cost as a fee assessed by the club onto the members.  That being the case, as others have said here, that would take us to pages 588-589 in RONR 11th edition.  So I guess the membership would have to clear this up.  Of course, that is just my opinion too   However I'm always willing to listen to reason......

 

As far as the vote that was made on this, the vote was only on the meeting location.  The vote was made by a quorum of the membership.  There was not a vote to require anyone to purchase a food item. 

 

Unfortunately the restaurants request got relayed in writing to the members that they must order a food item.  I chalk it up to poor wording choice by a novice secretary.  Of course no member can be forced to purchase a meal.  In attempt to remedy the 'perceived wrong', the secretary has made an offer to the membership to purchase a light meal for any member that may be in financial difficulties and sees the request by the restaurant as a hardship.

 

If it is indeed correct that members are not required to purchase food to attend the meeting, then I no longer see any problem.

[Guest William]

"Unfortunately the restaurants request got relayed in writing to the members that they must order a food item. I chalk it up to poor wording choice by a novice secretary. Of course no member can be forced to purchase a meal. "

The simple solutions seems to be to have the secretary write a new email stating that members are not required to order a food item.