Bylaws Amendments considered seriatim

[Guest Sally]

At an upcoming meeting we will be considering a number of bylaws amendment seriatim.  If a motion is passed to remove one of the amendments from the package, what happens to that amendment?  Is it discussed and voted upon immediately?  Is it discussed and voted upon after the package has been adopted?  Or does it just go away? 

 

Thanks in advance for your assistance.

 

[Josh Martin]

At an upcoming meeting we will be considering a number of bylaws amendment seriatim.  If a motion is passed to remove one of the amendments from the package, what happens to that amendment?  Is it discussed and voted upon immediately?  Is it discussed and voted upon after the package has been adopted?  Or does it just go away? 

 

We need more information. The answers to several of your questions could be either "yes" or "no," depending upon the specific details.

• Is this a revision, or a series of individual amendments?
• Are the amendments all related to the same subject, or to different subjects?
• Are the amendments being considered seriatim due to the adoption of a motion to do so, or due to the suggestion of the chair?
• Is the motion "to remove one of the amendments from the package" made as a motion to Amend by striking one of the amendments, or is it made as a motion for Division of a Question?

[Guest Sally]

 

We need more information. The answers to several of your questions could be either "yes" or "no," depending upon the specific details.

• Is this a revision, or a series of individual amendments?
• Are the amendments all related to the same subject, or to different subjects?
• Are the amendments being considered seriatim due to the adoption of a motion to do so, or due to the suggestion of the chair?
• Is the motion "to remove one of the amendments from the package" made as a motion to Amend by striking one of the amendments, or is it made as a motion for Division of a Question?

 

It is a series of individual amendments

The amendments are related to different subjects

The amendments are being considered seriatim due to the rules of convention adopted at the beginning of the meeting.

I'm not sure of the answer to the last question.  Our practice has been that if a member does not want a particular amendment to be adopted, the member will move to remove the amendment from the package.  No one seems to remember what we have done in the past once this motion is adopted.

[Josh Martin]

It is a series of individual amendments

The amendments are related to different subjects

The amendments are being considered seriatim due to the rules of convention adopted at the beginning of the meeting.

I'm not sure of the answer to the last question.  Our practice has been that if a member does not want a particular amendment to be adopted, the member will move to remove the amendment from the package.  No one seems to remember what we have done in the past once this motion is adopted.

 

When a member makes this motion, the chair will need to clarify exactly what it is he wishes to do. The member could make a motion to Amend to strike the amendment from the package. This motion is debatable and amendable and is discussed and voted upon immediately, and it requires a majority vote for adoption. If it is adopted, the amendment to the bylaws is defeated. There is no need to do anything further with it.

 

Alternatively, the member may call for a Division of a Question and demand that a particular amendment be considered separately. This is neither debatable nor amendable, and because the amendments are related to different subjects, it requires no vote - the demand of a single member is enough. If this is done, the amendment is considered separately, after consideration of the package is completed.

[Guest Sally]

Thank you for this information. It is very helpful.

[Guest Sally]

If the motion to Amend to strike an amendment from the package is adopted and the amendment is thus defeated, may the amendment be reintroduced on it's own at the same meeting?

[Hieu H. Huynh]

No, the defeated amendment cannot be renewed at the same meeting.

[Shmuel Gerber]

If the motion to Amend to strike an amendment from the package is adopted and the amendment is thus defeated, may the amendment be reintroduced on it's own at the same meeting?

 

I assume you mean that after one of the amendments was struck out, the package of remaining amendments was defeated. In that case, the amendment that was struck out may be reintroduced on its own. That is why it makes little sense to remove one of the amendments by striking it out when it could much more easily be removed by a demand for division of the question.

[Guest Sally]

Now I am confused. In Josh Martin's post above he said if the Amendment is struck from the package it is defeated. Hieu Huynh says it can't be renewed at the same meeting. Shmuel Gerber says it may be introduced on its own. To clarify my question: the amendment is struck from the package and then the package is adopted. Can that amendment be reintroduced at the same meeting?

[Hieu H. Huynh]

My response was based on the statement that the amendment was defeated. Since it was not defeated, but struck from the package, then it may be reintroduced on its own at the same meeting.

 

Perhaps providing some details on these amendments may help to clarify the responses to your question.

[Guest Sally]

Thank you for the clarification.  I am no longer confused.  I appreciate all of the assistance.

[Dan Honemann]

 That is why it makes little sense to remove one of the amendments by striking it out when it could much more easily be removed by a demand for division of the question.

 

I agree with this entirely. However, the fly in the ointment is the fact that, oddly enough, they appear to have adopted a rule that these proposed bylaw amendments, which have been offered in a single resolution, are to be considered seriatim, which means that a demand for a division of the question will not be in order.

[Shmuel Gerber]

I agree with this entirely. However, the fly in the ointment is the fact that, oddly enough, they appear to have adopted a rule that these proposed bylaw amendments, which have been offered in a single resolution, are to be considered seriatim, which means that a demand for a division of the question will not be in order.

 

I was under the impression that the rule in RONR preventing the division of material being considered seriatim applies only after the assembly has decided to consider a particular pending motion seriatim, but the rule is actually this (p. 277, ll. 13-16):

"If it has been decided to consider divisible material seriatim, even if the material was divisible on the demand of a single member, it is too late to move or demand a division of the question."

Maybe this would indeed apply to a rule that covers all the bylaws amendments that are to come up at a convention, but I don't think we can say so for certain without knowing exactly what that rule says.

[Guest Sally]

Here is the rule as it currently appears, however, these rules won't be officially adopted until the start of the convention next week.

 

Each of the two documents of proposed amendments to the Constitution and Bylaws included herein

shall be presented seriatim (literal translation “consideration by paragraph”). A section shall be read

by the Chairman of CIRC only upon a call from the floor for discussion, amendment or vote. This

means if a member of Council wishes to discuss a particular proposed amendment to the Constitution

or Bylaws in order to better understand the proposed amendment, to amend the proposed

amendment, or to delete the proposed amendment, she must request the section be read when it

appears in turn. Constitution amendments presented in the Call may be acted upon through a twothirds

(2/3) vote of those present and entitled to vote at Convention. Bylaws amendments presented

in the Call may be acted upon through a majority vote.

Additional amendments to the Bylaws may be presented from the floor following presentation of all

proposed amendments included herein. Those amendments may be acted upon through a two-thirds

(2/3) vote.

[Josh Martin]

Here is the rule as it currently appears, however, these rules won't be officially adopted until the start of the convention next week.

 

Each of the two documents of proposed amendments to the Constitution and Bylaws included herein

shall be presented seriatim (literal translation “consideration by paragraph”). A section shall be read

by the Chairman of CIRC only upon a call from the floor for discussion, amendment or vote. This

means if a member of Council wishes to discuss a particular proposed amendment to the Constitution

or Bylaws in order to better understand the proposed amendment, to amend the proposed

amendment, or to delete the proposed amendment, she must request the section be read when it

appears in turn. Constitution amendments presented in the Call may be acted upon through a twothirds

(2/3) vote of those present and entitled to vote at Convention. Bylaws amendments presented

in the Call may be acted upon through a majority vote.

Additional amendments to the Bylaws may be presented from the floor following presentation of all

proposed amendments included herein. Those amendments may be acted upon through a two-thirds

(2/3) vote.

Based upon this additional information, it would seem that, if the proposed rule is adopted as written, a call for a Division of a Question will not be in order. The proper procedure would then be for a member to move to amend the series of amendments by striking the amendment in question. This requires a majority vote, and as noted, it would not prevent a member from proposing the amendment separately at a later time.

Since the proposed rule severely limits the assembly's ability to consider a particular amendment separately, it may be desirable to defeat or amend the proposed rule.

[Guest Sally]

Based upon this additional information, it would seem that, if the proposed rule is adopted as written, a call for a Division of a Question will not be in order. The proper procedure would then be for a member to move to amend the series of amendments by striking the amendment in question. This requires a majority vote, and as noted, it would not prevent a member from proposing the amendment separately at a later time.

Since the proposed rule severely limits the assembly's ability to consider a particular amendment separately, it may be desirable to defeat or amend the proposed rule.C

Can you suggest how we would amend the rule to allow for a Division of a Question and still present the bylaws amendments as a package.  We have about 30 amendments but we expect only a few to garner any discussion.

[gpeastwoo]

Can you suggest how we would amend the rule to allow for a Division of a Question and still present the bylaws amendments as a package.  We have about 30 amendments but we expect only a few to garner any discussion.

With that many amendments, many questions or motions to remove other sections over and above the one mentioned. I would suggest the organization seriously consider having a parliamentarian to assist before and especially during the meeting.

Dave

[Dan Honemann]

Can you suggest how we would amend the rule to allow for a Division of a Question and still present the bylaws amendments as a package.  We have about 30 amendments but we expect only a few to garner any discussion.

 

Sure. Just remove the nonsense provision about considering the amendments seriatim.

[Josh Martin]

Each of the two documents of proposed amendments to the Constitution and Bylaws included herein

shall be presented seriatim (literal translation “consideration by paragraph”). A section shall be read

by the Chairman of CIRC only upon a call from the floor for discussion, amendment or vote. This

means if a member of Council wishes to discuss a particular proposed amendment to the Constitution

or Bylaws in order to better understand the proposed amendment, to amend the proposed

amendment, or to delete the proposed amendment, she must request the section be read when it

appears in turn. Constitution amendments presented in the Call may be acted upon through a twothirds

(2/3) vote of those present and entitled to vote at Convention. Bylaws amendments presented

in the Call may be acted upon through a majority vote.

Additional amendments to the Bylaws may be presented from the floor following presentation of all

proposed amendments included herein. Those amendments may be acted upon through a two-thirds

(2/3) vote.

 

Can you suggest how we would amend the rule to allow for a Division of a Question and still present the bylaws amendments as a package.  We have about 30 amendments but we expect only a few to garner any discussion.

 

See above. When it's time for the amendments to be considered, a member can still move that they be adopted as a package - and any member may demand that a particular amendment be considered separately.

[Guest Sally]

Got it.  Thanks!

[Shmuel Gerber]

See above. When it's time for the amendments to be considered, a member can still move that they be adopted as a package - and any member may demand that a particular amendment be considered separately.

 

That's interesting. I was thinking to suggest that the parts about majority vote and two-thirds vote be struck out, since presumably those vote requirements are already included in the constitution & bylaws.

[Dan Honemann]

That's interesting. I was thinking to suggest that the parts about majority vote and two-thirds vote be struck out, since presumably those vote requirements are already included in the constitution & bylaws.

 

Yep, which reminds me that I would like to make sure that Guest Sally understands that the advice that we on this forum have provided is based solely upon information which is nowhere near sufficient (through no fault of hers) to give us any real assurance that she may rely upon it as being applicable in her particular situation. None of us have read her organization’s Constitution or Bylaws, and we know next to nothing about the rules which it customarily adopts to govern the proceedings during its conventions. These documents and rules all take precedence over the rules in RONR, and the rules in RONR are the only rules that (hopefully) we know something about.

[Guest Sally]

Thanks everyone.  Yes, the parts about majority vote and two-thirds vote are in the constitution and bylaws so they can also be struck from the rules.  And yes, I do understand that all of this advice is based solely on the information I provided.  I appreciate all of the time and consideration you have given to this topic.

 

Sally