TIme limit of speeches

[RobertJ]

I am trying to figure out how a Homeowners Association (HOA) Board can limit Board Members speeches to less than 10 minutes.  The HOA bylaws require the HOA Board meetings to use Robert's Rules of Order (latest edition).  RONR, 11th edition (p.46, line 14) states that speeches can not be "longer than ten minutes".

 

It's my understanding that the HOA Board would not have the authority to adopt a rule changing the speech to say 3 minutes. It would require the Homeowners Association to adopt that rule and a vote of the homeowners.  I don't know that the HOA Board would want to go through all that effort and expense to put such a vote to the homeowners.

 

Assuming that is the case, I'm thinking that the HOA Board could at one of its HOA Board meetings vote to suspend the rules with regard to the ten minute limit for speeches and change the time to two or three minutes.  I understand that a suspend the rules motion would require previous notice and a 2/3 vote of the Board.

 

I'm thinking that putting the suspend the rules motion on the meeting agenda which is emailed to all Board Members and posted on the HOA's bulletin boards would suffice to meet the previous notice requirement.

 

A long term solution may be to go ahead and put a rule adoption vote to the homeowners which would include adopting the RONR rules for small boards and giving the authority to the HOA Board to decide on HOA Board Member's length of speeches.

 

Thank you for reading my post and for any and all replies.     

[Hieu H. Huynh]

"The executive board of an organized society operates under the society's bylaws, the society's parliamentary authority, and any special rules of order or standing rules of the society which may be applicable to it. Such a board may adopt its own special rules of order or standing rules only to the extent that such rules do not conflict with any of the rules of the society listed above." (RONR 11th ed., p. 486, ll. 13-19)

 

The board could adopt a special rule of order to limit the length of speeches at board meetings. This special rule of order requires previous notice and a two-thirds vote, or a vote of the majority of the entire membership (of the board). Or at a particular meeting, the board could adopt a motion to limit the length of speeches for that meeting. Such a motion requires a two-thirds vote.

[RobertJ]

Thank you, Hieu, for your response and the RONR reference.  I am happy to learn that the Board can decide on its own as the length of speeches without having get a vote of the entire HOA membership.

[RobertJ]

I think it's likely that other organizations may have implemented a special rule of order limiting speeches to less than ten minutes.  Here's a resolution that I may propose to the homeowners association board that I am a member of:

 

Whereas, Per Robert’s Rules of Order Newly Revised (11th ed.), p. 43, ll. 11-14 “Without the permission of the assembly, no one can speak longer than permitted by the rule of the body --- or, in a nonlegislative assembly that has no rule of its own relating to the length of speeches, longer than ten minutes.

 

Whereas, Per Robert’s Rules of Order Newly Revised (11th ed.), p. 486, ll. 13-19 “The executive board of an organized society operates under the society’s bylaws, the society’s parliamentary authority, and any special rules of order or any standing rules of the society which may be applicable to it. Such a board may adopt its own special rules of order or standing rules only to the extent that such rules do not conflict with any rules of the society listed above.”

 

Resolved, That the "Orderly Village" Homeowners Association (HOA) Board of Directors adopt the following special rule of order which will be applicable to all "Orderly Village" HOA Board Meetings:

 

After an "Orderly Village" HOA Board Member obtains the floor to speak during an HOA Board Meeting, the Board Member must relinquish the floor in no less than three minutes.  

 

End of resolution

_______________________________ 

 

I didn't phrase the rule to simply limit a member's speeches to three minutes because a member may consult during the time the member has the floor with the property manager or other invited guest.  The three minutes would apply to the entire time that the member has the floor including the time that the property manager or invited guest may respond to the member's questions during the time that the member has the floor.

 

Comments?

 

Thank you for reading my post and for any and all responses.

[RobertJ]

OK, that didn't work.  The proposed special rule should read instead:

 

After an "Orderly Village" HOA Board Member obtains the floor to speak during an HOA Board Meeting, the Board Member must relinquish the floor in three minutes or less.  

[Gary Novosielski]

Comment:

 

The whole thing could be replaced by a motion That members speeches are limited to three minutes.

 

The "relinquish" business is meaningless; when a member yields for a question, the time continues to be counted as his time, so the effect is the same.

[RobertJ]

Thank you, Gary, for your response. It's my understanding that a motion that member's speeches are limited to three minutes would only be applicable to the meeting at which the motion was made. But adoption of a special rule limiting speeches to three minutes would apply to the meeting at which the rule was adopted and subsequent meetings. I don't know if such a rule would have to be readopted with the election of a new HOA Board or if it would carryover to the new Board.

In any event I suppose that a special rule that "Member's speeches are limited to three minutes" would be appropriate. However, I can find no reference in RONR that the time allocated to member's speeches include time that others may be responding to the member's questions. It makes sense but I think that it's possible that a member might argue that the three minutes only applies to the time that they themselves are speaking.

[Hieu H. Huynh]

"If a speaker yields to another member for a question (Request for Information, pp. 294-95), the time consumed by the question is charged to the speaker." (RONR 11th ed., p. 388, ll. 18-20)

[Hieu H. Huynh]

I don't know if such a rule would have to be readopted with the election of a new HOA Board or if it would carryover to the new Board.

 

The rule would be in effect until it is rescinded. There is no "readopting".

[Shmuel Gerber]

"The executive board of an organized society operates under the society's bylaws, the society's parliamentary authority, and any special rules of order or standing rules of the society which may be applicable to it. Such a board may adopt its own special rules of order or standing rules only to the extent that such rules do not conflict with any of the rules of the society listed above." (RONR 11th ed., p. 486, ll. 13-19)

 

The board could adopt a special rule of order to limit the length of speeches at board meetings. This special rule of order requires previous notice and a two-thirds vote, or a vote of the majority of the entire membership (of the board). Or at a particular meeting, the board could adopt a motion to limit the length of speeches for that meeting. Such a motion requires a two-thirds vote.

 

This is an interesting topic, because the question is whether a special rule of order limiting the length of speeches "conflict with" the "rules of the society listed above," which include the parliamentary authority. Unlike most of the rules in RONR, however, the rule is not simply stated without qualification that each member may speak for no longer than ten minutes, but that "In a nonlegislative body or organization that has no special rule relating to the length of speeches, a member, having obtained the floor while a debatable motion is immediately pending, can speak no longer than ten minutes unless he obtains the consent of the assembly." (p. 387, ll. 29-34) This rule is also stated similarly on page 43, lines 11-14: "Without the permission of the assembly, no one can speak longer than permitted by the rules of the body—or, in a nonlegislative assembly that has no rule of its own relating to the length of speeches, longer than ten minutes."

 

Therefore, I think it is a reasonable interpretation that the executive board of a society may indeed adopt a rule limiting the length of speeches at board meetings, and that the adoption of such a rule does not conflict with the rule in RONR, which provides a limit on the length of speeches only in assemblies that don't have their own specially adopted limits.

[Shmuel Gerber]

I didn't phrase the rule to simply limit a member's speeches to three minutes because a member may consult during the time the member has the floor with the property manager or other invited guest.  The three minutes would apply to the entire time that the member has the floor including the time that the property manager or invited guest may respond to the member's questions during the time that the member has the floor.

  

I can find no reference in RONR that the time allocated to member's speeches include time that others may be responding to the member's questions. It makes sense but I think that it's possible that a member might argue that the three minutes only applies to the time that they themselves are speaking.

The reason you can find no such reference is that under the rules in RONR, a member does not have the right to control the floor while asking questions of others, and then to respond to whatever the other person says without obtaining the floor again. A member can make a Request for Information without it counting against his own allotted number of speeches, but any response cannot be in the form of a speech in debate unless the responder already has the floor or properly obtains it.

[RobertJ]

Thank you, Shmuel, for your response.  We are a small board (seven members all of which may not be in attendance at a meeting).  Our Property Manager is also usually in attendance. We are using the procedure for small boards per RONR, 11th ed. pp. 487-488.  During informal discussion with no motion pending Board members after being recognized to speak have on occasion directly questioned the Property Manager regarding proposals for landscaping or other agenda items.  While watching my City's City Council meetings I've seen similar exchanges directly between City Council Members and City Staff. I think perhaps in some cases requiring a Request for Information instead of allowing direct communication between a Board Member and the Property Manager may be too cumbersome and possibly lengthen our meeting. 

 

We have a guest speaker who will speak at the beginning of our next Board meeting - our Landscape company.  We had our Arborist at our last meeting.  The procedure we used was for the Arborist to speak about our upcoming tree work, etc.  Then each of our Board members were given an opportunity to speak to ask questions of the Arborist starting at one end of the table proceeding one by one to the other end of the table.   This seemed to work well instead of the Chair having to recognize each Board Member individually to be given the floor to speak.  After that we considered the tree work proposals presented by our Arborist while the Arborist was still in attendance.  We plan on using this same procedure with our Landscaper.

[RobertJ]

Thank you, Hieu, for your response and the reference. 

[RobertJ]

So along with the references above to RONR pages 43 and 486, the resolution I plan to propose is as follows.  I added that the rule be also applied to committee meetings.

 

Resolved, That the "Orderly Village" Homeowners Association (HOA) Board of Directors adopt the following special rule of order which will be applicable to all "Orderly Village" HOA Board and Committee Meetings:

 

Board Member's speeches during Board Meetings and Committee Member's speeches during Committee Meetings are limited to three minutes.

 

[Dan Honemann]

So along with the references above to RONR pages 43 and 486, the resolution I plan to propose is as follows.  I added that the rule be also applied to committee meetings.

 

Resolved, That the "Orderly Village" Homeowners Association (HOA) Board of Directors adopt the following special rule of order which will be applicable to all "Orderly Village" HOA Board and Committee Meetings:

 

Board Member's speeches during Board Meetings and Committee Member's speeches during Committee Meetings are limited to three minutes.

 

 

This reads as if it is a resolution to be presented for adoption at a meeting of the association's full membership, directing its board to adopt the special rule of order. If, instead, it is a resolution to be presented for adoption by the board, leave the first part out. "Resolved, That board member's speeches during board meetings [etc., etc.]" will suffice. Take a look at Form 7 on tinted page 30.

 

This assumes, of course, that your Board has the authority to adopt special rules of order applicable to meetings of the committee's referred to in the resolution as well as to its own.

 

[RobertJ]

Thank you, Dan, for your response.  All our committees were created by the Board.  We have no committees that have been created by our bylaws.  So it is my understanding that the Board has the authority to adopt a special rule for the Board as well as the committees.  I reviewed Form 7 on tinted page 30.  I concur that a special rule could be adopted per the reference.  However, I want to include the reference to RONR p. 43 as cited above so that it is contained in the resolution why a 3 minute limit is being adopted (RONR says 10 minutes), and the reference to RONR p. 486 to document the board's authority for adopting the special rule. 

 

Regarding previous notice, our agenda is emailed by our property manager to all Board Members 4 or 5 days prior to the meeting and posted on our two bulletin boards 4 days before the meeting to comply with state law.  It's my understanding that the emailing of the agenda incuding the agenda item for adopting the special rule to limit speeches to 3 limits would satisfy the RONR previous notice requirement.

[Josh Martin]

However, I want to include the reference to RONR p. 43 as cited above so that it is contained in the resolution why a 3 minute limit is being adopted (RONR says 10 minutes), and the reference to RONR p. 486 to document the board's authority for adopting the special rule. 

I see no reason to do this. If you anticipate resistance, it may be prudent to keep those pages bookmarked, if you need to cite them in debate, or in a Point of Order or Appeal, but there is no reason to include them in the resolution.

Regarding previous notice, our agenda is emailed by our property manager to all Board Members 4 or 5 days prior to the meeting and posted on our two bulletin boards 4 days before the meeting to comply with state law.  It's my understanding that the emailing of the agenda incuding the agenda item for adopting the special rule to limit speeches to 3 limits would satisfy the RONR previous notice requirement.

Possibly. Previous notice may be given by including the notice in the call of the meeting, and the call may be sent by email if the organization's bylaws authorize this method of notice or if members have agreed to receive notice by that method.

[RobertJ]

Thank you, Josh, for your response.  I understand that the RONR references cited in my resolution are not necessary.  However, I expect that there may be resistance to adopting this resolution based on the need for it and whether the Board has the authority to implement the special rule.  Also, one of these days I will no longer be on this HOA Board (Yay!) and will revert to just being a homeowner in the community.  When that happens, I want this resolution that is adopted to contain within in it the justification for it.  I would not be at a future meeting to cite the references.  The future Board can reference the resolution included in the minutes for the meeting at which it was adopted.  If they don't like it, they can repeal it and go back to speaking for up to ten minutes. I'd venture to guess that not many homeowners associations want their Board Members to be speaking for up to ten minutes while also observing the procedure for small boards which lets members speak any number of times on a debatable question.

[Richard Brown]

There is certainly nothing wrong with putting the reasons for a resolution in the body of the resolution.  That's what all the "whereas" clauses are for.  If one of your reasons is that it is because of a rule in RONR, there is certainly nothing wrong with including that for the current members to see and for future generations to see when they wonder "why was this provision put in our special rules?".

[Dan Honemann]

Thank you, Dan, for your response.  All our committees were created by the Board.  We have no committees that have been created by our bylaws.  So it is my understanding that the Board has the authority to adopt a special rule for the Board as well as the committees.  I reviewed Form 7 on tinted page 30.  I concur that a special rule could be adopted per the reference.  However, I want to include the reference to RONR p. 43 as cited above so that it is contained in the resolution why a 3 minute limit is being adopted (RONR says 10 minutes), and the reference to RONR p. 486 to document the board's authority for adopting the special rule. 

 

I'm afraid I wasn't clear when I suggested, in post #15, that you "leave the first part out." I wasn't referring to your "Whereas" clauses. I was referring to the wording in the first part of your resolution itself:  

 

"That the 'Orderly Village' Homeowners Association (HOA) Board of Directors adopt the following special rule of order which will be applicable to all 'Orderly Village' HOA Board and Committee Meetings:"

 

This reads as if it is a resolution to be presented for adoption at a meeting of the association's full membership, directing its board to adopt the special rule of order. It doesn't make much sense for a board to order itself to adopt a resolution.

[RobertJ]

Thank you, Dan, for the clarification.  I will reword the resolution as follows:

 

Whereas...

Whereas...

In accordance with previous notice given in the email distribution of the meeting agenda to all Board Members and the posting of the agenda on the HOA's bulletin boards prior to the meeting, I move that the following resolution be adopted as a special rule of order:

Resolved, that Board Member's speeches during Board meetings and Committee Member's speeches during Committee Meetings be limited to three minutes.