Guest RONR Newbie Posted June 22, 2015 at 05:06 AM Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 at 05:06 AM I am relatively new to Robert's Rules of Order and wanted to find a book to read to help familiarize myself. I know the for Dummies version is pretty popular for people new to RONR. Do you think it is necessary to get a copy of the official RONR 11ed or can I get by with the Robert's Rules of Order for Dummies. From what I have seen thus far, it seems like the overwhelming majority of the information is covered in the for Dummies version. Do you know what pieces of information are left out of the Dummies version that are in RONR 11ed? Which one should I go with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Harrison Posted June 22, 2015 at 06:29 AM Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 at 06:29 AM You should stick with RONR (11th Edition) or RONR In Brief (2nd Edition). While Robert's Rules For Dummies may have similarities to RONR (I haven't read For Dummies so I have no clue how much similarity there actually is) it is just a matter of time until a situation comes up when what RONR says conflicts with what For Dummies says. If the organization's bylaws name RONR as its parliamentary authority then RONR is going to prevail so why not use RONR so everyone is singing from the same song book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Posted June 22, 2015 at 11:49 AM Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 at 11:49 AM If Robert's Rules of Order for Dummies is anything like the other "for Dummies" books, I'm sure it is a good book, but it is the difference between reading a book that tell you about the rules and reading the rules themselves. If all you're doing is going by what the "for Dummies" book says, you don't actually know what the rules say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transpower Posted June 22, 2015 at 01:21 PM Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 at 01:21 PM Robert's Rules for Dummies is an excellent work; I've read and reread it several times. However, it is not a substitute for RONR. I suggest you get a copy of both! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmuel Gerber Posted June 22, 2015 at 02:53 PM Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 at 02:53 PM I am relatively new to Robert's Rules of Order and wanted to find a book to read to help familiarize myself. I know the for Dummies version is pretty popular for people new to RONR. Do you think it is necessary to get a copy of the official RONR 11ed or can I get by with the Robert's Rules of Order for Dummies. From what I have seen thus far, it seems like the overwhelming majority of the information is covered in the for Dummies version. Do you know what pieces of information are left out of the Dummies version that are in RONR 11ed? Which one should I go with? First of all, this website is sponsored by the people responsible for publishing RONR and RONR In Brief, so obviously we think you all ought to be buying at least one copy of each of those books. Second, as Mr. Fish has pointed out, Robert's Rules for Dummies is a book about Robert's Rules of Order, whereas RONR is Robert's Rules of Order. The "For Dummies" book covers more topics than RONR In Brief does, but it's still not the actual rule book, and it's not intended to be. But don't just take my word for it; read the introduction to Robert's Rules for Dummies and see for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted June 22, 2015 at 03:01 PM Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 at 03:01 PM I agree that Robert's Rules for Dummies is an excellent book which is true to RONR and can be a very worthwhile aid in understanding various provisions of RONR. It is filled with useful examples that make the rules easier to understand. I recommend it highly to those who are new to parliamentary procedure and are having hard time understanding some of the concepts in RONR and want something more advanced than RONR in Brief. However, it is not a substitute for RONR.... nor is it intended to be. It is extremely useful, however, as a SUPPLEMENT to RONR. In meetings, you need to be quoting from RONR, not from Robert's Rules for Dummies. It is not a substitute for RONR. The three books I consistently recommend are: 1. RONR in Brief, which I believe that everyone who participates in meetings should have and is an outstanding primer for the basics of meeting procedures. I emphasize the "basics". Retail price is $7.50, but it's down to about $6.25 on Amazon. 2. RONR, which is, without question, the "Right Book" and the only book you should be citing and referring to if you want to sound authoritative. Retail price is $18.95, but it's about $12.50 or so on Amazon. It is THE most commonly used parliamentary authority used in the U.S. 3. Robert's Rules for Dummies for those who can afford a third book and want something to help understand the concepts in RONR. Retail price, according to my copy, is $18.99, but it's $15 or 16 on Amazon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RONR Newbie Posted June 22, 2015 at 04:19 PM Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 at 04:19 PM I agree that Robert's Rules for Dummies is an excellent book which is true to RONR and can be a very worthwhile aid in understanding various provisions of RONR. It is filled with useful examples that make the rules easier to understand. I recommend it highly to those who are new to parliamentary procedure and are having hard time understanding some of the concepts in RONR and want something more advanced than RONR in Brief. However, it is not a substitute for RONR.... nor is it intended to be. It is extremely useful, however, as a SUPPLEMENT to RONR. In meetings, you need to be quoting from RONR, not from Robert's Rules for Dummies. It is not a substitute for RONR. The three books I consistently recommend are: 1. RONR in Brief, which I believe that everyone who participates in meetings should have and is an outstanding primer for the basics of meeting procedures. I emphasize the "basics". Retail price is $7.50, but it's down to about $6.25 on Amazon. 2. RONR, which is, without question, the "Right Book" and the only book you should be citing and referring to if you want to sound authoritative. Retail price is $18.95, but it's about $12.50 or so on Amazon. It is THE most commonly used parliamentary authority used in the U.S. 3. Robert's Rules for Dummies for those who can afford a third book and want something to help understand the concepts in RONR. Retail price, according to my copy, is $18.99, but it's $15 or 16 on Amazon.Those are actually the three books that I ordered so I think I am pretty much on the right track. In any event, I am still going to use RONR, but I want to figure out how much time to budget for studying RONR vs. RONR in Brief vs. RONR for Dummies. I will definitely have RONR as a point of reference. I guess my question is really, what is left out of the for Dummies version that is in RONR? For the time being, I want to be as efficient as possible in getting information. Is the RONR in Brief comparable to the for Dummies version in that they are both simplified versions of RONR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted June 22, 2015 at 04:57 PM Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 at 04:57 PM For the time being, I want to be as efficient as possible in getting information. Is the RONR in Brief comparable to the for Dummies version in that they are both simplified versions of RONR?No. RONR in Brief is very basic and covers only the fundamentals of meeting procedure....the basic steps to having a meeting, how to make motions, etc. It is intended to help complete novices learn the basics of meeting procedure in properly run meetings. It does not get into depth at all. Robert's Rules for Dummies goes into very much more detail and depth than RONR in Brief and can be much more useful in learning how to deal with problems and what to do when a meeting is not being properly run. I will definitely have RONR as a point of reference. I guess my question is really, what is left out of the for Dummies version that is in RONR?I can't enumerate what is left out of Robert's Rules for Dummies that is in RONR. RONR is 716 numbered pages, but when you add in the lengthy preface and introduction and the 48 pages of tables and charts, it totals around 800 pages. Robert's Rules for Dummies is 384 pages.... half the number of pages.... so it obviously leaves a few things out and can't cover everything in quite as much depth as RONR. The chapter in RONR on discipline is 26 pages. The chapter on discipline in Robert's Rules for Dummies is ten pages. RONR in brief devotes half a page to discipline and essentially refers readers to RONR for more information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RONR Newbie Posted June 23, 2015 at 03:16 AM Report Share Posted June 23, 2015 at 03:16 AM No. RONR in Brief is very basic and covers only the fundamentals of meeting procedure....the basic steps to having a meeting, how to make motions, etc. It is intended to help complete novices learn the basics of meeting procedure in properly run meetings. It does not get into depth at all. Robert's Rules for Dummies goes into very much more detail and depth than RONR in Brief and can be much more useful in learning how to deal with problems and what to do when a meeting is not being properly run. I can't enumerate what is left out of Robert's Rules for Dummies that is in RONR. RONR is 716 numbered pages, but when you add in the lengthy preface and introduction and the 48 pages of tables and charts, it totals around 800 pages. Robert's Rules for Dummies is 384 pages.... half the number of pages.... so it obviously leaves a few things out and can't cover everything in quite as much depth as RONR. The chapter in RONR on discipline is 26 pages. The chapter on discipline in Robert's Rules for Dummies is ten pages. RONR in brief devotes half a page to discipline and essentially refers readers to RONR for more information. I think based on this and the fact that I do have a pretty solid foundation of parliamentary procedure, I should probably devote most time to RONR 11ed. and RONR For Dummies. How obscure do you really need to get to find something that is not covered in RONR for Dummies? I get that RONR 11ed has a lot more, but with regard to those additional aspects, are they really something that is worth learning by heart or is it pretty much limited to info you would reference at a particular meeting but wouldn't typically come up in a meeting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmuel Gerber Posted June 23, 2015 at 05:20 PM Report Share Posted June 23, 2015 at 05:20 PM I think based on this and the fact that I do have a pretty solid foundation of parliamentary procedure, I should probably devote most time to RONR 11ed. and RONR For Dummies. How obscure do you really need to get to find something that is not covered in RONR for Dummies? I get that RONR 11ed has a lot more, but with regard to those additional aspects, are they really something that is worth learning by heart or is it pretty much limited to info you would reference at a particular meeting but wouldn't typically come up in a meeting? RONR has many sections that include detailed descriptions of procedures as well as background information designed for reading, in addition to all the detailed rules you will find relating to motions. In addition, whenever it comes to any precise rules, books other than RONR (aside from RONR In Brief) simply cannot be relied on for accurate information, and even RONR In Brief cannot be relied on for complete information. (And I say this with the utmost respect for, and my apologies to, my good friend Alan Jennings and other authors of books about parliamentary procedure.) I've removed many of the comments from this topic because, as stated elsewhere, the Discussion Board/Q&A Forum "is provided to allow an open exchange of views relevant to specific questions of parliamentary procedure under Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised," not to discuss in detail the contents of books not published by the Robert's Rules Association. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C. Alan Jennings Posted November 23, 2015 at 09:09 PM Report Share Posted November 23, 2015 at 09:09 PM Everyone,Thanks for the kind words about my book. I routinely remind anyone remotely interested in my book that it is but a companion to the real Robert's Rules. It is not a parliamentary authority and should not be used as one. If you have not obtained your copy of Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised, 11th ed. (RONR), you should do that before you inquire any further into the subject of parliamentary procedure as covered in "Robert's Rules," including buying any of the many books that only wish they were the authority that RONR is. Of course I am glad my book is helpful, but it's written only as a companion to the real thing. For what it's worth, I was approached to author a similar title for another publisher a year or two before the opportunity from Wiley came my way. The publisher wanted their title to cover Robert's Rules, but they limited the scope to the material contained in the editions that had gone into the public domain. They would not entertain covering the rules as they have evolved. I simply turned down their offer because I didn't want to be spinning old straw into fool's gold. Another author wound up with the job That book is out there still, but fortunately for the readers of such things, its sales rank is way down the list. For all who are building your library on parliamentary law, please make sure that RONR 11 is your first acquisition. Then RONR in brief. Then, if you feel the need for something else, go to one of the bookstores or a library and flip through some of the titles on parliamentary procedure and pay attention to the publication dates. Thank you. Now back to your regularly scheduled discussions.--Alan Jennings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gödel Fan Posted November 23, 2015 at 10:59 PM Report Share Posted November 23, 2015 at 10:59 PM No one seems to have suggested Parliamentary Law... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted November 23, 2015 at 11:49 PM Report Share Posted November 23, 2015 at 11:49 PM No one seems to have suggested Parliamentary Law...Parliamentary Law is an excellent work, of course, but I would not recommend it for newcomers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. J. Posted November 24, 2015 at 09:26 AM Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 at 09:26 AM I have Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised in Brief to an excellent book for people who need to know the basics of meeting procedure. If you want to quickly prepare for a meeting, devoting minimal time, choose that book. I have found Robert's Rules for Dummies to be an excellent intermediate to help you understand why are doing those things at meetings. It serves an excellent study guide. If you wish to reaklly understand parliamentary procedure, look to the source rules, Robert's Rule of Order Newly Revised, but keep your copies of Dummies beside you, to explain the parts you are having trouble understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. J. Posted November 24, 2015 at 09:27 AM Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 at 09:27 AM Parliamentary Law is an excellent work, of course, but I would not recommend it for newcomers. It is also dated. The rules have evolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted November 24, 2015 at 01:54 PM Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 at 01:54 PM It is also dated. The rules have evolved.Yes, that's one of the primary reasons I would not recommend it to newcomers. There is some information in Parliamentary Law which is still quite useful today (particularly in the Q & A section), but there is also a great deal of information which is obsolete. Unless the reader already has a fairly thorough understanding of the rules as they exist today, it may be more confusing than helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted November 24, 2015 at 02:25 PM Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 at 02:25 PM It is also dated. The rules have evolved. More like timeless. RONR has evolved from that particular rock solid foundation. But yes, it's not reading for all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. J. Posted November 26, 2015 at 06:28 PM Report Share Posted November 26, 2015 at 06:28 PM More like timeless. RONR has evolved from that particular rock solid foundation. But yes, it's not reading for all. Not necessarily timeless. The rules do evolve, though I find Parliamentary Law quite useful. While it was said, accurately, that PL was "in complete harmony" with Robert's Rules of Order Revised, 1915, the authorship team no longer makes that assertion since the 1990 (9th) edition of RONR. It can be argued they didn't in the 1981 (8th) edition either. I have regretted that there are not newer editions of PL that would be "in complete harmony," with the current edition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. J. Posted November 26, 2015 at 06:35 PM Report Share Posted November 26, 2015 at 06:35 PM Not that one article was actually written on this, just prior to the 10th edition being published. It was "Parliamentary Disharmony in Two Movements," Parliamentary Journal, July 2000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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