Improperly Called Special Meeting- Point of Order,Ruling, Appeal and Debate

[DanielEHayes]

The body is a volunteer fire company incorporated as a non-profit

The body in question is composed of 58 voting members which are the volunteers of the company.

They require 15 members be present for quorum. 

The company is funded by a carnival and a yearly fundraising letter, for company expenses.

Theres is a town fire department budget that pays the 4 employees and buys the buildings, apparatus, and equipment, plus maintainence

That budget is spent by the board of fire commissioners, which is an elected body, but the budget is usually proposed by the Chief.

The company elects its own Chair, Vice-Chair, and Second Vice-Chair, who are traditionally then hired by the town as Chief, Deputy Chief, and Assistant Chief

For a special meeting notice must be sent to all members of the meeting via their pagers. 
RONR is their Parliamentary authority.
A group of 15 members including the Chairman/Chief held a special meeting at the carnival with 15 seemingly hand selected people.
Notice was not sent out via the pager.
The vote at the special meeting was to spend an additional $3000 on the annual picnic on person sized plastic balls that people roll around inside of and into other players.The motion for the addition of the $3000 expense for giant plastic balls passed during the special meeting.
The previous year picnic had the $3000 expense for giant plastic balls included. A member moved to postpone indefinitely and the motion passed. No Picnic was held that year.
The current year picnic was approved in a regular meeting with no inclusion of $3000 giant plastic balls.
This was found out about through the "rumor mill" and an expense request sent to the treasurer.

A member plans to raise a point of order at the next regular meeting about a lack of notice relative to this special meeting thereby invalidating this giant plastic ball vote.
The member expects the Chief/Chairman to rule the point of order "not well taken"/against it.
The member plans to appeal and to someone else to second it.

Is this appeal debatable. The member thinks it is NOT debatable because of from RONR (11th ed.) p. 257 ll. 35-36. that states an appeal isnt debatable if  it "is made when an undebatable question is immediately pending or involved in the appeal.

I think he is interpreting that wrong and that it is debatable.  What's the right answer to that matter and how should he best handle this issue during the next regular meeting?

[Hieu H. Huynh]

What would be debated?

[DanielEHayes]

They wish to open the floor to debate so that their "parliamentarian" can explain why it matters - why notice is important, the fundamental principles involved, etc.

[Richard Brown]

What would be debated?

It seems to me that what would be debated would be whether or not the proper notice was sent... whether notice was sent at all and if so, did it comply with the bylaws.  Or, put another way, was the motion to spend the $3,000 validly adopted?  

 

I don't see this issue as falling withing  the exceptions listed on page 257 at lines 33-36 to cause the appeal to be non-debatable.  It doesn't relate to indecorum or a transgression of the rules of speaking or to the priority of business.  So, unless the appeal is made when an undebatable question is immediately pending, it seems to me it is debatable per the first two words in line 33: "is debatable".  The motion to spend the money was certainly a debatable motion and I believe the question of whether proper notice was sent cannot be resolved by the assembly without discussing it.   The question is whether the motion to spend the money was validly adopted.

 

I will suggest an alternative strategy, though:  The member can make a motion to rescind the motion to spend the money.  If he gives previous notice of his intent to make such a motion it takes only a majority vote to rescind the earlier motion.  If no notice is given, it requires a two-thirds vote or the vote of a majority of the entire membership.

[Josh Martin]

I think he is interpreting that wrong and that it is debatable. What's the right answer to that matter and how should he best handle this issue during the next regular meeting?

I concur that the Appeal is debatable, although I also concur with Mr. Huynh that there doesn't seem to be much to debate. The bylaws require all members to be notified of the special meeting by pager, and this was not done. It seems pretty clear-cut to me.

I will suggest an alternative strategy, though: The member can make a motion to rescind the motion to spend the money. If he gives previous notice of his intent to make such a motion it takes only a majority vote to rescind the earlier motion. If no notice is given, it requires a two-thirds vote or the vote of a majority of the entire membership.

Since it seems pretty clear-cut that the motion is, in fact, null and void, and an Appeal requires only a majority vote without notice, an Appeal seems like the better strategy.

[Gary Novosielski]

I agree that a point-of-order and appeal is the way to go.  Failure to notify all members as required by the bylaws invalidates anything done at the meeting, so there is nothing to Rescind, because nothing was validly passed.

 

And the motion to Appeal would be debatable, since there it does not relate to any undebatable pending question.  In fact, it sounds likely that it would be made when no question at all was immediately pending (i.e. when no other motion was being considered).

[DanielEHayes]

There is a new wrinkle to this that came up almost literally right after I posted this that probably is better served in a new thread.

[Guest Nancy N.]

Where do you get giant plastic balls?  How many of them does $3,000 get you?  How long does it take to suffocate inside one (and does the degree of activity affect this question)?

 

is buying giant plastic balls supposed to promote the carnival experience, so that maybe the expense can be said to be part of the cost of fund-raising?

 

What do you do with giant plastic balls at the end of the day?  Can you store them in a shed until next year's carnival?  (If there are extras, do you give them away?  I can give you my address.)

[Guest Nancy N.]

Oh, and I have some marginally-germane follow-up questions.

[Gödel Fan]

It's actually a rental, not a purchase.  They are not used during the fund-raising carnival, but at a picnic for the members and their families.  

[Guest Nancy N.]

It's actually a rental, not a purchase.  They are not used during the fund-raising carnival, but at a picnic for the members and their families.  

 

LIke, to put children in? For maybe the afternoon, or, perhaps, until high-school graduation?  (Darn, I wish I'd had one!)

[Guest Nancy N.]

(Boy I like these discussion threads that start out about whether something might obscurely be debatable and wind up, possibly not my fault, about high-school graduations and giant plastic balls.)

[Nan_P2950]

So, a member can still make a Point of Order and/or Appeal, at the next meeting, "for the lack" of notice before the privious meeting?

I thought that since no one raise a Point of Order at the privious meeting, the chair's ruling stands (with the understanding that just because it stood in previous meetings does not mean that a member can't in future meetings).

[DanielEHayes]

It is a continuing breach...just because someone made an incorrect ruling does not mean the breach does not still exist. Its continuing whichm means it doesnt end until the matter is remedied. 

[Gödel Fan]

You get inside and roll them into each other.

[Edgar Guest]

You get inside and roll them into each other.

 

Please don't encourage Nancy N.

[Josh Martin]

So, a member can still make a Point of Order and/or Appeal, at the next meeting, "for the lack" of notice before the privious meeting?

I thought that since no one raise a Point of Order at the privious meeting, the chair's ruling stands (with the understanding that just because it stood in previous meetings does not mean that a member can't in future meetings).

Yes, a member may, in this case, raise a Point of Order and Appeal at the next meeting. It is correct that, generally speaking, a Point of Order must be raised at the time of the breach, but some violations are so egregious that they constitute a continuing breach. Lack of proper notice is an example of such a breach.