Guest Debbie Bramer Posted October 14, 2015 at 01:02 AM Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 at 01:02 AM We have a potential situation in our upcoming elections. There has been division on the board and a negative atmosphere. Caused by a person in a specific position. The President is the first person on our slate. If the President does not like (and can't work with) the person voted in as "specific position", when is the correct time for the President to resign. a) immediately following the election of the person that the President can't work with. wait and resign a couple weeks after If the President resigns at the election meeting, does that permit another vote for President? If this happens, does the Vice President automatically take over as President? Is there proper protocol that should be adhered to? We do have an election section in our By-laws but we have nothing covering this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Debbie Bramer Posted October 14, 2015 at 01:05 AM Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 at 01:05 AM That should be a 'b') not an emoticon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Curious Posted October 14, 2015 at 01:38 AM Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 at 01:38 AM How are the elections conducted? Do you vote on each office one-by-one or all at once? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted October 14, 2015 at 02:46 AM Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 at 02:46 AM We have a potential situation in our upcoming elections. There has been division on the board and a negative atmosphere. Caused by a person in a specific position. The President is the first person on our slate. If the President does not like (and can't work with) the person voted in as "specific position", when is the correct time for the President to resign. a) immediately following the election of the person that the President can't work with. wait and resign a couple weeks after If the President resigns at the election meeting, does that permit another vote for President? If this happens, does the Vice President automatically take over as President? Is there proper protocol that should be adhered to? We do have an election section in our By-laws but we have nothing covering this issue. The President is free to resign at any time, either orally at a meeting, or by submitting his resignation in writing to the Secretary. If and when he does, the Vice President automatically becomes President after the President's resignation is accepted, unless your bylaws specifically provide otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Curious Posted October 14, 2015 at 03:02 AM Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 at 03:02 AM What if all the offices were voted on in a single ballot and the results given in a single announcement? Could the President then refuse reelection if (s)he hears that an unwelcome colleague has been elected? That would leave the election for President incomplete. On the other hand, if the President had to resign, that would leave a vacancy in the office Vice President. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Debbie Bramer Posted October 14, 2015 at 03:42 AM Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 at 03:42 AM Elections are done one at a time. President, Treasurer, Vice President, Recording Secretary, Corresponding Secretary, 5 directors unless there is a past president, in which case only 4 directors are elected. I know that a President can resign in writing at any time but would it not make more sense for the President to do so on the election night? If the President resigns prior to the secretary being elected (our order is listed above), could it not be done verbally in front of the assembly? If the President resigns, the position of Vice President could be filled by an existing board member, done by board voting. We have a provision in our by-laws permitting the board to fill open positions by the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted October 14, 2015 at 01:48 PM Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 at 01:48 PM What if all the offices were voted on in a single ballot and the results given in a single announcement? Could the President then refuse reelection if (s)he hears that an unwelcome colleague has been elected? That would leave the election for President incomplete. On the other hand, if the President had to resign, that would leave a vacancy in the office Vice President.Sure.I know that a President can resign in writing at any time but would it not make more sense for the President to do so on the election night?Probably.If the President resigns prior to the secretary being elected (our order is listed above), could it not be done verbally in front of the assembly?Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Curious Posted October 14, 2015 at 02:54 PM Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 at 02:54 PM I'm curious about the timing of this. How long does a candidate have to decline his election? Until the next item of business is taken up? Can she wait until other elections have been completed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted October 14, 2015 at 03:00 PM Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 at 03:00 PM Perhaps I'm missing something (I'm on my first cup of coffee), but the question seems to me to be whether the newly elected president's resignation results in an incomplete election or in a vacancy. If that is the question, then I think that if the president is elected first, and has consented to his candidacy or is present and does not decline, that he is the new president from the instant of his election. If he resigns a few minutes later, after the secretary (who for the purpose of this discussion I will assume is the person he dislikes) is elected, then there is a vacancy in the office of the president which will be filled automatically and instantly by the new vice president, assuming he has already been elected. There will then be a vacancy in the office of vice president which should be filled as provided in the organization's bylaws. The question I have, though, is that if the president resigns immediately upon the announcement of the secretary's election, whether the vacancy (which is actually in the office of vice president) must be filled in the manner of filling vacancies or would it be proper to have a new election for vice president right then and there, without notice? On the other hand, if all of the officers are elected on the same ballot (which does not seem to be the case here), and when the results are announced the newly elected president immediately declares "I decline to serve", then there is an incomplete election and the office of president must be voted on again. I would appreciate comments, especially as to the question I posed in my second paragraph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted October 14, 2015 at 03:27 PM Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 at 03:27 PM I think (in answer to the question asked in the second paragraph of post #9) that the resultant vacancy in the office of vice-president must be filled in the manner of filling vacancies, which could be by having another election for vice-president right then and there. My own view of it is that no further notice is required because all members were previously notified that there would be an election at this meeting to fill the office of vice-president. I also think this question came up once before, so I hope I'm not contradicting myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted October 14, 2015 at 03:29 PM Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 at 03:29 PM I'm curious about the timing of this. How long does a candidate have to decline his election? Until the next item of business is taken up? Can she wait until other elections have been completed? You posed a one ballot question where all of the results are announced back to back, in rapid fire order. In that case I think the newly elected President can decline after the chair is done announcing all of the results. But the original poster says: Elections are done one at a time. President, Treasurer, Vice President, Recording Secretary, Corresponding Secretary, 5 directors unless there is a past president, in which case only 4 directors are elected. In this case I'd suggest that once the election of the President is completed and they've moved on to the next office, it's too late to decline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Debbie Bramer Posted October 14, 2015 at 03:45 PM Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 at 03:45 PM George since each position is a separate election, the president should announce her/his resignation at the meeting. Which is the election meeting as indicated in our by-laws. So if the Vice President has been elected then that person would automatically become the President? Is there a reason why you would not hold election for the vacant position which would be President? Notice would not need to be given because the assembly knows that it is an election meeting. Also an election for a vacant position should happen before moving away from elections to the remainder of the meeting, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Debbie Bramer Posted October 14, 2015 at 03:54 PM Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 at 03:54 PM George since each position is a separate election, the president should announce her/his resignation at the meeting. Which is the election meeting as indicated in our by-laws. This is actually a question, the resignation should happen at that meeting correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Curious Posted October 14, 2015 at 04:05 PM Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 at 04:05 PM So if the Vice President has been elected then that person would automatically become the President? Is there a reason why you would not hold election for the vacant position which would be President? "In case of the resignation or death of the president, the vice-president (if there is only one) or the first vice-president (if there are more than one) automatically becomes president for the unexpired term, unless the bylaws expressly provide otherwise for filling a vacancy in the office of president." RONR (11th ed.), p.458, l.8-13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted October 14, 2015 at 06:07 PM Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 at 06:07 PM I'm curious about the timing of this. How long does a candidate have to decline his election? Until the next item of business is taken up? Can she wait until other elections have been completed?If the candidate is present, he must decline immediately. If he waits until other elections have been completed, it's a resignation.I think (in answer to the question asked in the second paragraph of post #9) that the resultant vacancy in the office of vice-president must be filled in the manner of filling vacancies, which could be by having another election for vice-president right then and there. My own view of it is that no further notice is required because all members were previously notified that there would be an election at this meeting to fill the office of vice-president.I also think this question came up once before, so I hope I'm not contradicting myself.I have no disagreement with this if the bylaws are silent, but if the organization has its own procedure for filling vacancies specified in the bylaws, must that procedure still be followed? The OP suggested in Post #6 that the bylaws authorize the board to fill vacancies.So if the Vice President has been elected then that person would automatically become the President? Is there a reason why you would not hold election for the vacant position which would be President?When the President resigns, the Vice President automatically becomes President, unless the bylaws specifically provide otherwise. RONR doesn't make an exception for a President who resigns a few minutes after being elected.This is actually a question, the resignation should happen at that meeting correct?Yes, I think it would be best if the resignation happened as soon as possible. A resignation is, however, a voluntary act, so it's ultimately up to the President when to resign.Also an election for a vacant position should happen before moving away from elections to the remainder of the meeting, correct?I don't know if that will be possible. You said that your bylaws provide that the board fills vacancies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted October 14, 2015 at 07:26 PM Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 at 07:26 PM I have no disagreement with this if the bylaws are silent, but if the organization has its own procedure for filling vacancies specified in the bylaws, must that procedure still be followed? The OP suggested in Post #6 that the bylaws authorize the board to fill vacancies. A bylaw provision permitting or authorizing the board to fill vacancies would present no problem, although a provision vesting such authority solely in the board would. I doubt if the latter is the case, although I suppose it's possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gödel Fan Posted October 14, 2015 at 08:14 PM Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 at 08:14 PM It seems to me that odd things would happen if he is elected, a VP is elected, and the President then resigns. The newly elected VP does not become President, assuming that the terms begin at the close of the annual meeting (or whatever it's called). Instead, the old VP, possibly a different person, becomes President, and finishes out the remainder of the term, probably 20 minutes or so. But what happens after that? Can the President be said to have resigned if he never assumed office? Prior to adjournment, the old VP was President. What happens at adjournment to make the new VP the President? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Curious Posted October 14, 2015 at 09:29 PM Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 at 09:29 PM Why would you assume that the term begins at the close of the meeting? "An officer-elect takes possession of his office immediately upon his election's becoming final, unless the bylaws or other rules specify a later time." RONR(11th ed.), p.444, l.28-30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted October 14, 2015 at 10:48 PM Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 at 10:48 PM It seems to me that odd things would happen if he is elected, a VP is elected, and the President then resigns. The newly elected VP does not become President, assuming that the terms begin at the close of the annual meeting (or whatever it's called). Instead, the old VP, possibly a different person, becomes President, and finishes out the remainder of the term, probably 20 minutes or so. But what happens after that? Can the President be said to have resigned if he never assumed office? Prior to adjournment, the old VP was President. What happens at adjournment to make the new VP the President?This post makes two assumptions.-That the term of office does not begin immediately. We have no evidence that this is the case.-That, assuming the term of office does not begin immediately, the President intends to resign not only from his new term, but also from the remainder of his current term. I see no reason to believe this is the case, since we are told the President intends to resign if a certain person is elected as Secretary, because he cannot work with that person. It wouldn't make sense to resign from his current term, where this is not an issue.If we assume both of these things, then the current Vice President will serve for the remainder of the President's term. The newly elected President's new term will then begin, and his second resignation will take effect, and the new Vice President will serve for the remainder of the President's term.Additionally, yes, I believe it can be a resignation even if the President has not yet taken office, although the resignation would not take effect until the new term begins. RONR provides that an election is complete if the candidate doesn't immediately decline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gödel Fan Posted October 15, 2015 at 03:42 AM Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 at 03:42 AM The dangers of getting used to practices in the organizations I participate with. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Debbie Bramer Posted October 15, 2015 at 03:35 PM Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 at 03:35 PM This post makes two assumptions.-That the term of office does not begin immediately. We have no evidence that this is the case.-That, assuming the term of office does not begin immediately, the President intends to resign not only from his new term, but also from the remainder of his current term. I see no reason to believe this is the case, since we are told the President intends to resign if a certain person is elected as Secretary, because he cannot work with that person. It wouldn't make sense to resign from his current term, where this is not an issue.If we assume both of these things, then the current Vice President will serve for the remainder of the President's term. The newly elected President's new term will then begin, and his second resignation will take effect, and the new Vice President will serve for the remainder of the President's term.Additionally, yes, I believe it can be a resignation even if the President has not yet taken office, although the resignation would not take effect until the new term begins. RONR provides that an election is complete if the candidate doesn't immediately decline. In our by-laws the end of the term is October 31, and the newly elected board takes office on November 1st. The President would be resigning for the new term, not the present one. So would the new VP elect, then take over as President as of November 1st? Or would the President need to state which term they are resigning from? In this instance the VP would be the same person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted October 15, 2015 at 03:42 PM Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 at 03:42 PM Digressing at the risk of irritating certain people who hang out on Flatbush Avenue, perhaps your President can take the high road and simply not run again if she truly can't work with a certain member. That will save a lot of procedural steps. How good is the other person's chance of winning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted October 15, 2015 at 05:39 PM Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 at 05:39 PM In our by-laws the end of the term is October 31, and the newly elected board takes office on November 1st.The President would be resigning for the new term, not the present one. So would the new VP elect, then take over as President as of November 1st? Or would the President need to state which term they are resigning from?So it seems one of the assumptions was correct.I think it's already fairly clear that the President intends to resign from his upcoming term, not his present term, but he should certainly clarify this if there is any doubt on that subject. Additionally, yes, the new Vice President would become President on November 1st.Digressing at the risk of irritating certain people who hang out on Flatbush Avenue, perhaps your President can take the high road and simply not run again if she truly can't work with a certain member. That will save a lot of procedural steps.Alternately, perhaps they can elect someone else as President. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted October 15, 2015 at 05:48 PM Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 at 05:48 PM Alternately, perhaps they can elect someone else as President. Indeed. During debate on the nominations, the other nominee's supporters can tout the fact that Candidate B is fully committed to working with all of the incoming board members, whoever they may be, for the good of the society (without mentioning anything about Candidate A's reluctance to do so). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Debbie Bramer Posted October 15, 2015 at 09:21 PM Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 at 09:21 PM In actuality, it would be best for the organization if both people agreed to not run. The President has been in the position far to long. The problem person is an issue for the majority of the board and is causing a toxic environment. Unfortunately the majority of people do not want to run for treasurer. Another option is to review how to remove toxic board members. Fortunately or unfortunately, the general assembly has not been shown the division on the board so they tend to vote in the incumbent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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