jbarnhart73 Posted October 16, 2015 at 02:41 PM Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 at 02:41 PM Our church recently held a vote for new deacons. Our bylaws state that to be elected as a deacon, "an individual must receive 75 percent of the votes." Here's the quandary. Ballots were passed out with three names on the ballot. By each name was the option to check yes or no. The voter could vote for any or all of the candidates. When the tellers counted the ballots, some were blank, some had yes checked by all three and some had neither yes or no checked by a name. For example 33 ballots were handed out and 6 were returned completely blank. Of the rest, Candidate A 27 yes, 0 no Candidate B 24 yes, 1 no (two ballots did not have a vote either way for this person)Candidate C 19 yes, 4 no (4 ballots did not have a vote either way for this person) We are considering the total votes for candidate A to be 27, but what about the rest. In calculating the 75%, is it the total number of ballots returned that had at least one selection OR only the numbers which had a yes or no for that person? If 27 is the total number, then 75% is 20 votes and candidates A&B both had at least 75% of the vote while C did not. If the total number is different for each candidate, based upon the total votes cast for each candidate, then each candidate received 75%. The question - how do you determine the total ballots according to Robert's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted October 16, 2015 at 03:22 PM Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 at 03:22 PM Our church recently held a vote for new deacons. Our bylaws state that to be elected as a deacon, "an individual must receive 75 percent of the votes." Here's the quandary. Ballots were passed out with three names on the ballot. By each name was the option to check yes or no. The voter could vote for any or all of the candidates. When the tellers counted the ballots, some were blank, some had yes checked by all three and some had neither yes or no checked by a name. For example 33 ballots were handed out and 6 were returned completely blank. Of the rest, Candidate A 27 yes, 0 no Candidate B 24 yes, 1 no (two ballots did not have a vote either way for this person)Candidate C 19 yes, 4 no (4 ballots did not have a vote either way for this person) We are considering the total votes for candidate A to be 27, but what about the rest. In calculating the 75%, is it the total number of ballots returned that had at least one selection OR only the numbers which had a yes or no for that person? If 27 is the total number, then 75% is 20 votes and candidates A&B both had at least 75% of the vote while C did not. If the total number is different for each candidate, based upon the total votes cast for each candidate, then each candidate received 75%. The question - how do you determine the total ballots according to Robert's? Under the rules in RONR, "... every ballot with a vote for one or more candidates is counted as one vote cast, and a candidate must receive a majority of the total of such votes to be elected." (11th ed., p. 441, ll. 13-16). By the way: "In elections, "for" and "against" spaces or boxes should not be used. They are applicable only with respect to votes on motions. In an election, a voter can vote against one candidate only by voting for another who has been nominated or by writing in the name of another candidate." (p. 414, ll. 1-5) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Curious Posted October 16, 2015 at 03:45 PM Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 at 03:45 PM We are considering the total votes for candidate A to be 27, but what about the rest. In calculating the 75%, is it the total number of ballots returned that had at least one selection OR only the numbers which had a yes or no for that person? If you are filling separate offices, then each section of the ballot is considered separately. If you are filling multiple positions in a single body, then each candidate must receive at least 75 percent (according to your rules) of the total number of ballots indicating any preference. Since "no" isn't a valid election vote under RONR, you will have to decide whether to count the noes under your own rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted October 16, 2015 at 03:50 PM Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 at 03:50 PM If you are filling separate offices, then each section of the ballot is considered separately. If you are filling multiple positions in a single body, then each candidate must receive at least 75 percent (according to your rules) of the total number of ballots indicating any preference. Since "no" isn't a valid election vote under RONR, you will have to decide whether to count the noes under your own rules. What difference will it make whether or not they count the "noes"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted October 16, 2015 at 03:51 PM Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 at 03:51 PM If 27 is the total number, then 75% is 20 votes . . . .Not that it makes any difference in this particular case, but 75 percent of 27 would be 21 votes, not 20. 75 percent is actually 20.25, which is a fractional number. 20 votes is less than 75 percent. You have to round up to the next whole person (vote), so you would need 21 votes to reach the 75 percent threshold. You never round down when calculating votes required. You always round up to the next whole person. You might look at FAQ # 5: http://robertsrules.com/faq.html#5 Edited to add: 20 votes would be only 74.07407 percent of 27. That's less than 75 percent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Curious Posted October 16, 2015 at 04:02 PM Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 at 04:02 PM What difference will it make whether or not they count the "noes"? If a ballot has three noes, will it be counted in the total? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted October 16, 2015 at 05:13 PM Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 at 05:13 PM If a ballot has three noes, will it be counted in the total? You had better look at the facts again, and then answer my question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Curious Posted October 16, 2015 at 05:32 PM Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 at 05:32 PM Ah yes, moot in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted October 16, 2015 at 05:37 PM Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 at 05:37 PM Our church recently held a vote for new deacons. Our bylaws state that to be elected as a deacon, "an individual must receive 75 percent of the votes." Here's the quandary. Ballots were passed out with three names on the ballot. By each name was the option to check yes or no. The voter could vote for any or all of the candidates. When the tellers counted the ballots, some were blank, some had yes checked by all three and some had neither yes or no checked by a name. For example 33 ballots were handed out and 6 were returned completely blank. Of the rest, Candidate A 27 yes, 0 no Candidate B 24 yes, 1 no (two ballots did not have a vote either way for this person)Candidate C 19 yes, 4 no (4 ballots did not have a vote either way for this person) We are considering the total votes for candidate A to be 27, but what about the rest. In calculating the 75%, is it the total number of ballots returned that had at least one selection OR only the numbers which had a yes or no for that person? If 27 is the total number, then 75% is 20 votes and candidates A&B both had at least 75% of the vote while C did not. If the total number is different for each candidate, based upon the total votes cast for each candidate, then each candidate received 75%. The question - how do you determine the total ballots according to Robert's?How exactly does this election for deacons work? Are you electing a set number of deacons (one, two, etc.)? Or can your assembly elect as many (or as few) deacons as it wants?If the former, these "yes" or "no" options are improper. Members cast votes for specific people, and they can cast as many votes as there are available positions. Ballots with any votes are counted in the total, and the total is the same for all candidates.If the latter, then the "yes" or "no" options are proper, and the total is different for each candidate.Under the rules in RONR, "... every ballot with a vote for one or more candidates is counted as one vote cast, and a candidate must receive a majority of the total of such votes to be elected." (11th ed., p. 441, ll. 13-16). By the way: "In elections, "for" and "against" spaces or boxes should not be used. They are applicable only with respect to votes on motions. In an election, a voter can vote against one candidate only by voting for another who has been nominated or by writing in the name of another candidate." (p. 414, ll. 1-5)But Dan, are they filling a fixed number of offices? Since we are told that members could vote for "any or all of the candidates," I'm not sure if that is the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted October 16, 2015 at 05:53 PM Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 at 05:53 PM But Dan, are they filling a fixed number of offices? Since we are told that members could vote for "any or all of the candidates," I'm not sure if that is the case. But Dan, are they filling a fixed number of offices? Since we are told that members could vote for "any or all of the candidates," I'm not sure if that is the case. My assumption, perhaps incorrect, is that they were voting to elect three deacons, since a voter could vote for all three candidates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbarnhart73 Posted October 16, 2015 at 08:17 PM Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 at 08:17 PM Thank you for the clarifications. I believe Mr. Honemann's response provides the response I was looking for. In response to Mr. Martin's question, there was no set number to be elected meaning that all candidates on the ballot were eligible to be elected. We will remove the "No" option in all future ballets for candidates leaving it on only if a ballot vote is required for a vote on an issue. Thank you for your responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted October 16, 2015 at 10:12 PM Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 at 10:12 PM Thank you for the clarifications. I believe Mr. Honemann's response provides the response I was looking for. In response to Mr. Martin's question, there was no set number to be elected meaning that all candidates on the ballot were eligible to be elected. We will remove the "No" option in all future ballets for candidates leaving it on only if a ballot vote is required for a vote on an issue.If there was no set number to be elected, Mr. Honemann's response is not what you are looking for. If the society is free to elect as many (or as few) deacons as it wishes, a yes/no vote is the proper way to go about it, and each candidate is treated as a separate question. As a result, all three candidates should have been declared elected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted October 16, 2015 at 10:50 PM Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 at 10:50 PM If there was no set number to be elected, Mr. Honemann's response is not what you are looking for. If the society is free to elect as many (or as few) deacons as it wishes, a yes/no vote is the proper way to go about it, and each candidate is treated as a separate question. As a result, all three candidates should have been declared elected. I agree. My response was based on an incorrect assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Curious Posted October 16, 2015 at 11:08 PM Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 at 11:08 PM If there was no set number to be elected, Mr. Honemann's response is not what you are looking for. If the society is free to elect as many (or as few) deacons as it wishes, a yes/no vote is the proper way to go about it, and each candidate is treated as a separate question. As a result, all three candidates should have been declared elected. What if the maximum number of deacons is fixed in the bylaws but there are fewer candidates than open positions? Is it still a yes/no vote on each? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted October 17, 2015 at 12:34 AM Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 at 12:34 AM What if the maximum number of deacons is fixed in the bylaws but there are fewer candidates than open positions? Is it still a yes/no vote on each?To be clear, you're asking about a situation where there is a maximum, but no minimum? In that case, yes, I'd still do a yes/no vote on each, but the votes on the candidates should be held one at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Curious Posted October 17, 2015 at 12:51 AM Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 at 12:51 AM I know of a couple boards which have both a minimum and maximum number of members. As I recall, they do generally vote yea or nay on candidates one at a time. I'm wondering when/if the election rule of "vote for a person" kicks in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted October 17, 2015 at 11:35 AM Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 at 11:35 AM I know of a couple boards which have both a minimum and maximum number of members. As I recall, they do generally vote yea or nay on candidates one at a time. I'm wondering when/if the election rule of "vote for a person" kicks in. In a situation such as this (for example, the bylaws provide that the board shall consist of no less than five and no more than nine members), I think that the membership's assembly should determine the number to be elected prior to conducting the election. I don't know of any rule in RONR saying so, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted October 17, 2015 at 03:50 PM Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 at 03:50 PM I know of a couple boards which have both a minimum and maximum number of members. As I recall, they do generally vote yea or nay on candidates one at a time. I'm wondering when/if the election rule of "vote for a person" kicks in. I concur with Mr. Honemann that, in the situation where there is both a minimum and a maximum, the assembly should decide in advance how many members shall be elected, and then the "vote for a person" rule can kick in. Voting "yes" or "no" on each candidate is problematic, since the assembly is required to elect at least the minimum number of members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbarnhart73 Posted October 22, 2015 at 10:19 PM Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 at 10:19 PM Sorry about the delay in responding. We have no fixed number of Deacons to be elected. People submit recommendations to the Deacon body who then vets each one as to his suitability/qualifications AND is interviewed to see if he is willing to serve. Once the Deacon body vets the candidates the candidates are submitted to the church body for a vote and you can vote for any or all of the candidates. Why a no option is on the ballot I don't know, probably because we've always done it that way. Our bylaws simply state, " To be elected as a deacon, an individual must receive 75 percent of the votes." Three questions: 1. If each candidate is considered a separate vote on the ballot where is this stated in RONR so I can mark this for future reference?2. If the answer to #1 is that each candidate is a separate vote, do we need to wait until a business meeting (special called or otherwise) to announce this? Thanks for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted October 22, 2015 at 10:37 PM Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 at 10:37 PM We have no fixed number of Deacons to be elected. People submit recommendations to the Deacon body who then vets each one as to his suitability/qualifications AND is interviewed to see if he is willing to serve.Once the Deacon body vets the candidates the candidates are submitted to the church body for a vote and you can vote for any or all of the candidates. Why a no option is on the ballot I don't know, probably because we've always done it that way. Our bylaws simply state, " To be elected as a deacon, an individual must receive 75 percent of the votes." Because there is no fixed number, and therefore each candidate is a separate question, it makes perfect sense to include "no" as an option. The purpose of this is exactly as it seems - in case a member feels that a particular candidate should not be a deacon.Three questions:1. If each candidate is considered a separate vote on the ballot where is this stated in RONR so I can mark this for future reference?2. If the answer to #1 is that each candidate is a separate vote, do we need to wait until a business meeting (special called or otherwise) to announce this?Thanks for your help.1.) RONR, 11th ed., pg. 416, line 34 - pg. 417, line 11.2.) Yes, the results of the vote must be announced at a meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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