Guest Lori Posted November 13, 2015 at 03:13 AM Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 at 03:13 AM We have a local community group in which we elect a President, Vice President, Secretary and Treasurer. All were nominated at our October meeting. The nominations were accepted and the motions seconded. It was mentioned that we needed to hold a write in ballot vote at our November annual meeting. The ballots listed each of the nominees with a section to write in another person and a box at the end of each name and open space for a check mark indicating the vote preference. The ballots (16 total) were collected and counted which resulted in a tie for the President. All other seats were unanimous. Some of the voters had left the premises and it was suggested that we re-vote with the present voters until a president was elected. Two additional votes were held (12 voters), each resulting in a tie. A motion was made and passed to adjourn the vote until the December meeting. As I was appointed the secretary, I requested the ballots to ensure that they are available for a recount if necessary. When I reviewed the original ballots, every ballot had check in the box next to either the printed nominee or their write in choice, except for one ballot. This person checked the box next to the printed names for Secretary Vice President and Treasurer, however, they wrote in another name in the fill in section, but neglected to put a check next to either name, therefore not casting a vote for that position. The ballot counters assumed that the person was voting for the write in name and counted it as such. Can someone confirm that this is an invalid ballot and should not be counted? If the ballot is valid, when we hold the new election in December, are all eligible voters able to cast a new vote either in person or via absentee ballot? Or do we need to only allow the original 16 voters from the first vote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hieu H. Huynh Posted November 13, 2015 at 03:25 AM Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 at 03:25 AM The ballot should be counted if the meaning is clear. Any member present can vote. Absentee voting could be done only if authorized in the bylaws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted November 13, 2015 at 03:39 AM Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 at 03:39 AM Thank you for your response. All other selections on the ballot were clearly checked. The president section contained the preprinted nominee and the write in name, no check mark. Since this persons other elections were clear, how can we count it as valid not knowing their intent? Maybe they didn't check a box because they were unsure and forgot to go back and make a final selection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted November 13, 2015 at 03:39 AM Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 at 03:39 AM When I reviewed the original ballots, every ballot had check in the box next to either the printed nominee or their write in choice, except for one ballot. This person checked the box next to the printed names for Secretary Vice President and Treasurer, however, they wrote in another name in the fill in section, but neglected to put a check next to either name, therefore not casting a vote for that position. The ballot counters assumed that the person was voting for the write in name and counted it as such. Can someone confirm that this is an invalid ballot and should not be counted? If the ballot is valid, when we hold the new election in December, are all eligible voters able to cast a new vote either in person or via absentee ballot? Or do we need to only allow the original 16 voters from the first vote The ballot is valid. I concur with the judgment of the tellers that the member's intent was clearly to vote for the write-in name, and the ballot should not be treated as invalid simply because the member failed to check the box next to the name he wrote in. Furthermore, illegal ballots are counted, although they are not credited to any particular candidate. As a result, even if this ballot was illegal, it would still be the case that no candidate received a majority and another round of voting must be held. All members who are present at the time the vote is retaken may vote. Absentee voting is not permitted unless it is authorized in your bylaws. Whether a member voted in the first election is immaterial. Thank you for your response. All other selections on the ballot were clearly checked. The president section contained the preprinted nominee and the write in name, no check mark. Since this persons other elections were clear, how can we count it as valid not knowing their intent? Maybe they didn't check a box because they were unsure and forgot to go back and make a final selection? I personally think the most reasonable interpretation is that the member intended to vote for the name written on the ballot, but it doesn't really make any difference, because an illegal vote is still counted in the total number of votes cast. You need to hold another round of voting either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lori Posted November 13, 2015 at 04:08 AM Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 at 04:08 AM Thank you for your reply Josh. I am sorry, but I want to be clear. The vote is majority rules. If the unmarked ballot is considered illegal, as deemed by your response above, then it does not count for either candidate. If candidate A is the nominee and candidate B is the write in, the votes would be as follows: Total votes.......16Candidate A.....8Candidate B.....7 1 illegal vote for Candidate B Does this mean that Candidate A wins the majority and the position or that the whole election is invalid and needs to be redone. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted November 13, 2015 at 05:53 AM Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 at 05:53 AM The ballot where B's name is written in, but not checked, could either be a proper vote for B or an "illegal" ballot whose meaning is not clear (I think the latter, but that is for the association to decide - p. 416, line 14 - not me, not you alone, not the tellers alone), but given the circumstances and the numbers you reported, it actually makes no difference -- you have ended up with an "incomplete" election (no decision reached) for that office -- there was no majority for A or B in the 16 ballots cast "registering any evidence of having some preference" - RONR, p. 415, line 27 - whether B was credited with the vote or not. (The other offices, based on what you wrote, are all properly elected.) Thus, as Josh noted, do it, the presidential election (only), over again. Illegal votes ARE counted and included in the total number of votes cast -- see the sample Teller's reports on pp. 417 & 418. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weldon Merritt Posted November 13, 2015 at 06:21 AM Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 at 06:21 AM Maybe I am missing something, but I don't see how the ballot in question could be considered an illegal vote. We are told that the voter wrote in the name of Candidate B, but failed to check the box next to that name. I see two possiblities: Either the voter intended to vote for Candidate B and simnply forgot to check the box (or thought simply writing in the naame was sufficent), or the voter wrote in the name and then decided not to vote for either candidate. In the former case, the ballot is a valid vote for Candidate B, resulting in a tie. In the latter case, it is a blank ballot for that postion (just as it would be if there had been two candidates printed on the ballot and the voter did not check the box next to either one), resulting in a majority for Caddiate A. The only way I see that it could have been an illegal vote would be if the voter had checked the boxes next to both names. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted November 13, 2015 at 12:21 PM Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 at 12:21 PM The ballots listed each of the nominees with a section to write in another person and a box at the end of each name and open space for a check mark indicating the vote preference. Next time, when there is only one name printed on the ballot (there being only one nominee) with a space below it to allow for a write-in vote, do not put boxes after the name and the blank space. It's a big mistake. In any event, I agree with the tellers, with Josh Martin, and with General Robert who wrote (on p. 225 of PL) that, in circumstances such as this, "No one would write a name on a ballot under the title of an office without intending to vote for that person." You say that, after the first vote was declared to have resulted in a tie, two additional ballot votes were taken, both of which also resulted in a tie, and that completion of this election was then postponed to the next meeting. At its next meeting, your group should continue with its balloting for the office of President until someone is elected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted November 13, 2015 at 12:54 PM Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 at 12:54 PM In any event, I agree with the tellers, with Josh Martin, and with General Robert who wrote (on p. 225 of PL) that, in circumstances such as this, "No one would write a name on a ballot under the title of an office without intending to vote for that person." Well, Henry the First may not have had a counter-example brought to his attention: If, at a meeting with a written ballot containing the name of the NomCom's single choice, there are a bunch of floor nominations, it is the most natural thing in the word for a voter to write them down on the ballot (for lack of any other option) as an aide-memoire and then indicate his preference with a mark, or indicate his abstention with no mark at all. I think it a bit too much of a presumption that a written-in name (even just one) indicates a vote for that person. At any rate, the various responses in this thread (as well as the original posters puzzlement) surely show that the meaning of the ballot is "doubtful" and hence should be properly classified as "illegal". Fortunately, as we have all noted, it makes no difference and all will be decided by the voters who show up for the December meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted November 13, 2015 at 12:58 PM Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 at 12:58 PM Thank you for your reply Josh. I am sorry, but I want to be clear. The vote is majority rules. If the unmarked ballot is considered illegal, as deemed by your response above, then it does not count for either candidate. If candidate A is the nominee and candidate B is the write in, the votes would be as follows: Total votes.......16Candidate A.....8Candidate B.....7 1 illegal vote for Candidate B Does this mean that Candidate A wins the majority and the position or that the whole election is invalid and needs to be redone. Thank you.Neither. The election is valid, but no candidate won a majority, so another round of voting must be held. A majority is more than half of the ballots cast. Illegal votes are included in that total.Maybe I am missing something, but I don't see how the ballot in question could be considered an illegal vote. We are told that the voter wrote in the name of Candidate B, but failed to check the box next to that name. I see two possiblities: Either the voter intended to vote for Candidate B and simnply forgot to check the box (or thought simply writing in the naame was sufficent), or the voter wrote in the name and then decided not to vote for either candidate. In the former case, the ballot is a valid vote for Candidate B, resulting in a tie. In the latter case, it is a blank ballot for that postion (just as it would be if there had been two candidates printed on the ballot and the voter did not check the box next to either one), resulting in a majority for Caddiate A. The only way I see that it could have been an illegal vote would be if the voter had checked the boxes next to both names.The OP's argument is that it is unclear who the member intended to vote for (if anyone). I don't agree with this argument, but a ballot where the meaning is unclear is an illegal vote.I am certainly not comfortable viewing a ballot with a name written in as an abstention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted November 13, 2015 at 01:12 PM Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 at 01:12 PM I am certainly not comfortable viewing a ballot with a name written in as an abstention. Suppose there was/were more than one name written in? And none were otherwise "marked"? Surely you wouldn't consider that to be a vote for all of them (in the case of an election for a single office). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted November 13, 2015 at 01:23 PM Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 at 01:23 PM Suppose there was/were more than one name written in? And none were otherwise "marked"? Surely you wouldn't consider that to be a vote for all of them (in the case of an election for a single office).Probably not, but a ballot with votes for too many candidates and a ballot whose meaning is otherwise unclear both count as illegal votes, so it doesn't really make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumpy52403 Posted November 13, 2015 at 03:11 PM Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 at 03:11 PM Thank you for your reply Josh. I am sorry, but I want to be clear. The vote is majority rules. If the unmarked ballot is considered illegal, as deemed by your response above, then it does not count for either candidate. If candidate A is the nominee and candidate B is the write in, the votes would be as follows: Total votes.......16Candidate A.....8Candidate B.....7 1 illegal vote for Candidate B Does this mean that Candidate A wins the majority and the position or that the whole election is invalid and needs to be redone. Thank you. At the risk of overstating the obvious, I think it should be emphasized that with the facts presented, no candidate received a majority in this example. Since "illegal" votes are counted in the total votes, the total is indeed 16, so a majority would be a minimum of 9 votes, not 8. While this might be blatantly obvious to some of us, far too often I hear people confuse "majority" with "plurality." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted November 13, 2015 at 05:58 PM Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 at 05:58 PM Thank you everyone for your replies. I am however, completely confused as to how to proceed. I don't fully understand why the 8 legal votes for candidate a don't qualify for a majority vote, nor do I understand how the unmarked ballot can be considered legal, valid or the like. I am still learning how all this works and appreciate the help and patience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weldon Merritt Posted November 13, 2015 at 06:52 PM Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 at 06:52 PM Probably not, but a ballot with votes for too many candidates and a ballot whose meaning is otherwise unclear both count as illegal votes, so it doesn't really make a difference. Actually, the specific rule is: "If the meaning of one or more ballots is doubtful, they can be treated as illegal if it is impossible for them to affect the result; but if they may affect the result, the tellers report them to the chair, who immediately submits to the assembly the question of how these ballots should be recorded." RONR, p. 416, ll. 12-16 (emphasis added). In this instance, the possible interpretations are: (1) the voter intended to vote for B, which would be a legal vote; (2) the voter wrote in B but then decided not to vote for either candidate, which would be an abstention for the office of president; or (3) the ballot is an illegal vote (which I think is a stretch, but I will concede that as a possible interpretation). Obviously, how the ballot is interpreted would have affected the result. If it was counted as a vote for B or as an illegal vote, no candidate received a majority and the election was incomplete. But if it was counted as an abstention, then A received a majority and should have been declared the winner. What should have happened is that the question should have been submitted to the assembly for decision. But since that did not happen, and the result waas declared a tie, the proper recourse now is to have another vote at the next meeting. I don't think a recount is proper, since it seems that the ballots have not been kept secure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumpy52403 Posted November 13, 2015 at 06:54 PM Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 at 06:54 PM Thank you everyone for your replies. I am however, completely confused as to how to proceed. I don't fully understand why the 8 legal votes for candidate a don't qualify for a majority vote, nor do I understand how the unmarked ballot can be considered legal, valid or the like. I am still learning how all this works and appreciate the help and patience.Eight votes is exactly half of 16 votes cast. A majority, by definition, is more than half. Thus, the minimum number of votes to constitute a majority in this case is 9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted November 13, 2015 at 06:59 PM Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 at 06:59 PM I don't fully understand why the 8 legal votes for candidate a don't qualify for a majority vote,I'm not sure what exactly is causing the problem, so let's try both potential areas of confusion.The total number of votes to be used in computing a majority is the total number of non-blank ballots cast. To emphasize this again, illegal votes are included in this total.Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that this ballot should be treated as an illegal vote. (I still don't agree with this, but we'll get to that next). Your argument for this is because the meaning of the ballot is unclear. The member might have intended to vote for Candidate B, as indicated by the fact that he wrote in Candidate B's name. You seem to be suggesting that it is also possible that he wrote the name on the ballot for some other reason.If there is a reasonable possibility that the member intended to vote for Candidate B, how is it fair to toss out his vote and declare Candidate A the winner? Therefore, illegal votes are not counted toward any particular candidate, but they are included in the total. This might mean that voting will continue until there is a clear majority. In future rounds of voting, the member will hopefully not make the same mistake, and the tellers might provide appropriate instructions to the assembly to help ensure that the meaning of all ballots is clear.As a result of the fact that the illegal vote is included in the total, a candidate must receive a majority of 16 vote. Eight is not a majority of 16. The definition of a majority is "more than half." Simply having more votes than any other candidate or proposition is not a majority - this is called a "plurality."nor do I understand how the unmarked ballot can be considered legal, valid or the like.Well, most of us (myself included) concur with the tellers committee that the member wrote Candidate B's name on the ballot because he intended to vote for Candidate B. Additionally, as Mr. Huynh explained back in Post #2, technical errors (such as failing to make a check mark) do not invalidate the ballot if the meaning is clear. Quite frankly, I don't understand why you think that the ballot is invalid.As explained above, however, the result in either case is that no candidate received a majority of the votes cast, and therefore, another round of voting must be conducted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted November 13, 2015 at 07:00 PM Report Share Posted November 13, 2015 at 07:00 PM Thank you everyone for your replies. I am however, completely confused as to how to proceed. At its next meeting, your group should continue with its balloting for the office of President until someone is elected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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