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NancySkiff

Votes that are Null and Void

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I found this section in the 4th edition.  Is it still valid in the 11th edition?  Is so please cite the Chapter and Page.  Many thanks.  Nancy

47. Votes that are Null and Void even if Unanimous. No motion is in order that conflicts with the laws of the nation, or state, or with the assembly's constitution or by-laws, and if such a motion is adopted, even by a unanimous vote, it is null and void.

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RONR/11th Ed.  pp. 110 & p. 343.

Note the (relatively substantial) difference:  Your 4th Ed. cite refers to "the laws of the nation" &c.;  The 11th refers to procedural rules in the laws

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Guest Lori S
On ‎12‎/‎28‎/‎2015 at 7:42 AM, Hieu H. Huynh said:

Also see RONR 11th ed., p. 251.

Regarding "Timeliness" and “Precedent” on pages 251/252 mentioned.  If a current motion is action is outside of the authority of the Council provided in the By-Laws (violates the By-Laws) but there is an establish history of this action by the Council, does this change how the current motion and vote be treated?  Looking to understand proper parliamentary process to address this situation. Any help and reference is appreciated.

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46 minutes ago, Guest Lori S said:

Regarding "Timeliness" and “Precedent” on pages 251/252 mentioned.  If a current motion is action is outside of the authority of the Council provided in the By-Laws (violates the By-Laws) but there is an establish history of this action by the Council, does this change how the current motion and vote be treated?  Looking to understand proper parliamentary process to address this situation. Any help and reference is appreciated.

Guest Lori, if an adopted motion violates the bylaws, someone should raise a point of order IN A MEETING that the motion conflicts with the bylaws and is null and void.  The  chair rules on the motion.  Any two members may appeal  from the ruling of the chair (the member appealing and someone to second the appeal).  Such an appeal is debatable, but is subject to special debate rules, primarily that each member gets to speak only once, but the chair may speak twice: once to explain the basis of his ruling and again at the conclusion of the debate.  It takes a majority vote to overturn the decision of the chair.  The decision of the assembly is final.

Past custom, if it violates a rule, falls to the ground once a point of order is made and sustained that it violates the rules.... in this case, that the adopted motion violates the bylaws.  A point of order that an adopted motion violates the bylaws may be made at any time during the continuance of the breach....which might be months or even years.

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4 hours ago, Guest Lori S said:

If a current motion is action is outside of the authority of the Council provided in the By-Laws (violates the By-Laws) but there is an establish history of this action by the Council, does this change how the current motion and vote be treated?

No.

Adopting a main motion which conflicts with the bylaws is a continuing breach, which means that a Point of Order is timely for as long as the breach continues. The fact that there is “an established history” of this action is a custom, not a precedent. A custom simply means that something has been done a particular way in the past. If a custom is in conflict with the bylaws, the bylaws prevail. A precedent is only created by a ruling of the chair in response to a Point if Order and any subsequent Appeal. Even if there was a precedent, however, that would not change anything. A precedent is merely an interpretation of the organization’s rules. If it turns out that interpretation was wrong, then it’s time for a new precedent.

The bottom line is that the society needs to follow its bylaws, and the fact that it has failed to do so in the past is not a sufficient reason to ignore them now. If the society dislikes the rule in the bylaws, the only solution is to amend the bylaws.

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17 hours ago, Guest Lori S said:

Regarding "Timeliness" and “Precedent” on pages 251/252 mentioned.  If a current motion is action is outside of the authority of the Council provided in the By-Laws (violates the By-Laws) but there is an establish history of this action by the Council, does this change how the current motion and vote be treated?  Looking to understand proper parliamentary process to address this situation. Any help and reference is appreciated.

Could you explain what you mean by "outside of the authority of the Council?"  It is something that is beyond the purpose of society, it might be permissible. 

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