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custom changed to written rule


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Guidance/clarification Please. 2/3rd vote or majority vote ? - changing "custom" to "special order" for written rule to change club building usage.

 over 600 legion members that have right to vote on "Post" business.

Legion post smoking allowed since opened- custom unwritten rule(?).   Member at a post general membership rises and verbally moves that building to be a non smoking area(change to custom rule?) - seconded. Presiding Officer states that due to the importance of motion will be added to officer election ballot.  Two(2) month notice in bulletin (not mailed) displayed within the club building. voting "do you agree building should be non smoking?  Agree or disagree"   So Agree=43 Disagree =40.   

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Also, unless your rules grant your president that power, he does not have the authority to decide on his own that a motion is of such importance to be added to an election ballot and require prior notice. The membership itself, though, could choose to do that. Even if this motion was an amendment to a previously-adopted policy allowing smoking, it could have been adopted at the same meeting, although the voting threshold in that case would have been higher (2/3, or a majority of the entire membership, as opposed to a majority).

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If an organization does things "because that is always the way it has been done", then these customs should be written down so that everyone knows what to do. A custom becomes a force of law and needs a formal motion to rescind it just as if the assembly had enacted it. 

Motion was for non smoking- not to rescind or amend 

Voting "do you agree building should be non smoking?  Agree or disagree"   So Agree=43 Disagree =40.   

SO...voted by ballot, majority vote, so club to immediately go non smoking??

pg 18:15 ...provided that it does not conflict with or amend any existing rule or act (changes custom to standing)

A special rule of order is parliamentary procedure term for a rule adopted by the organization that relate to procedure or to the duties of officers within meetings.

A standing rule is a rule that relates to the details of the administration of a society and which can be adopted or changed the same way as any other act of the deliberative assembly.[1] Standing rules can be suspended by a majority vote for the duration of the session, but not for longer.[2] Examples of standing rules include wearing name badges, signing a guest register, or using recording devices.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Guest Legion said:

 

If an organization does things "because that is always the way it has been done", then these customs should be written down so that everyone knows what to do. A custom becomes a force of law and needs a formal motion to rescind it just as if the assembly had enacted it. 

 

I've no idea where you get this idea from, but it certainly is not from the current edition of RONR (or any other edition that I'm aware of).

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pg 11: line 4: in matters not governed by...a society may be guided by established custom...

pg 19: line 1-5 :a particular practice may sometimes come to be followed as a matter of established custom so that it is treated practically as if it were prescribed by a rule

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4 minutes ago, Guest Legion said:

pg 11: line 4: in matters not governed by...a society may be guided by established custom...

pg 19: line 1-5 :a particular practice may sometimes come to be followed as a matter of established custom so that it is treated practically as if it were prescribed by a rule

A practice followed as a matter of established custom may be treated practically as if it were prescribed by a rule, but it is, nevertheless, not a formally adopted rule. As a consequence, a rule conflicting with a custom such as the one you have described can be adopted by a majority vote, and if adopted will then take precedence over the previously established custom.

Motions to Rescind are applicable to rules (or whatever) made or created by the adoption of one or more main motions. (RONR, 11th ed., p. 305, ll. 28-31).

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it just came to my attention that in the "House Rules" is a single line "there is no drinking or smoking on the dance floor"  -- 

Would that "House" Rule, that also covers vulgarity, clothing/attire, then need to be amended or rescinded in regard to smoking at all?

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24 minutes ago, Guest Legion said:

it just came to my attention that in the "House Rules" is a single line "there is no drinking or smoking on the dance floor"  -- 

Would that "House" Rule, that also covers vulgarity, clothing/attire, then need to be amended or rescinded in regard to smoking at all?

I don't think a motion to make the entire building non-smoking conflicts with your cited rule.

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Standing rules = may be rescinded by a majority vote, if notice of the proposed action was given at a previous meeting, or in the notice of the meeting;

or, without any notice, it may be rescinded by a majority of the entire membership, or by a two-thirds vote.

Guess this will go back and forth for months...  

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51 minutes ago, Guest Legion said:

Standing rules = may be rescinded by a majority vote, if notice of the proposed action was given at a previous meeting, or in the notice of the meeting;

or, without any notice, it may be rescinded by a majority of the entire membership, or by a two-thirds vote.

Guess this will go back and forth for months...  

But a practice which is simply followed as a matter of established custom, and which has not been formally adopted by the assembly, is not a "standing rule" as defined in RONR. It is merely a "custom".

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Thank you for replying... What I know

  • the "move" was placed on the election ballot of the post. stating it was a "referendum" for non smoking building. (no business plan from executive board or committee)
  • the Commander stated was a change to the by-laws then decided was a change to the club/house rules after the vote
  • by laws state:
    • members need to keep adjutant aware of address, phone and emails 
    • General membership has at least a 2 week prior notice of expenditures of $1000/or more. (does not say how)
    • Under by law changes (amendments) ...at any post meeting with a 2/3rd of members in attendance provided written and read at preceding regular meeting & further provided that written notice, or official publication,is given 7 days in advance of the vote..... (not a clue what the official publication is)
    • General membership meeting after vote:
    • Motion to allow E-cigs- discussion resulted in recommendation to amend motion to defer to incoming officers and executive board to decide how to implement and bring changes that may need member vote back to general meeting . agreed to defer and tabled motion.

Another general membership meeting was held last night: Commander stated "the non smokers out did the smokers and the rule passed. There is no debate on this and no you can not change the vote results.  This is a change to the by-laws and it stands --well it is a change to the house rules"... "The new officers are being installed July 8,2017 and this will take effect then"

I felt intimidated to not speak of amendments or rescinds. 

 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Guest Legion said:

Thank you for replying... What I know

  • the "move" was placed on the election ballot of the post. stating it was a "referendum" for non smoking building. (no business plan from executive board or committee)
  • the Commander stated was a change to the by-laws then decided was a change to the club/house rules after the vote
  • by laws state:
    • members need to keep adjutant aware of address, phone and emails 
    • General membership has at least a 2 week prior notice of expenditures of $1000/or more. (does not say how)
    • Under by law changes (amendments) ...at any post meeting with a 2/3rd of members in attendance provided written and read at preceding regular meeting & further provided that written notice, or official publication,is given 7 days in advance of the vote..... (not a clue what the official publication is)
    • General membership meeting after vote:
    • Motion to allow E-cigs- discussion resulted in recommendation to amend motion to defer to incoming officers and executive board to decide how to implement and bring changes that may need member vote back to general meeting . agreed to defer and tabled motion.

Another general membership meeting was held last night: Commander stated "the non smokers out did the smokers and the rule passed. There is no debate on this and no you can not change the vote results.  This is a change to the by-laws and it stands --well it is a change to the house rules"... "The new officers are being installed July 8,2017 and this will take effect then"

I felt intimidated to not speak of amendments or rescinds. 

Based on the facts provided, it still appears that the assembly validly adopted a new house rule. The Commander is mistaken, however, that "there is no debate on this and no you can not change the vote results." A motion to Rescind or to Amend Something Previously Adopted is in order. Such a motion is debatable and requires a 2/3 vote, a vote of a majority of the entire membership, or a majority vote with previous notice.

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Thank you for replying... What I know

  • the "move" was placed on the election ballot of the post. stating it was a "referendum" for non smoking building. (no business plan from executive board or committee)
  • the Commander stated was a change to the by-laws then decided was a change to the club/house rules after the vote
  • by laws state:
    • members need to keep adjutant aware of address, phone and emails 
    • General membership has at least a 2 week prior notice of expenditures of $1000/or more. (does not say how)
    • Under by law changes (amendments) ...at any post meeting with a 2/3rd of members in attendance provided written and read at preceding regular meeting & further provided that written notice, or official publication,is given 7 days in advance of the vote..... (not a clue what the official publication is)
    • General membership meeting after vote:
    • Motion to allow E-cigs- discussion resulted in recommendation to amend motion to defer to incoming officers and executive board to decide how to implement and bring changes that may need member vote back to general meeting . agreed to defer and tabled motion.

Another general membership meeting was held last night: Commander stated "the non smokers out did the smokers and the rule passed. There is no debate on this and no you can not change the vote results.  This is a change to the by-laws and it stands --well it is a change to the house rules"... "The new officers are being installed July 8,2017 and this will take effect then"

I felt intimidated to not speak of amendments or rescinds. 

Motion to table discussions on non smoking till new executive board and house committee drafted implementation plan...  It was voted no smoking.  How long does 'board' have to present a plan? 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Guest Legion said:

Motion to table discussions on non smoking till new executive board and house committee drafted implementation plan...  It was voted no smoking.  How long does 'board' have to present a plan? 

There's no time limit unless the motion specified one. Additionally, the part of the motion which "tabled" discussion of this issue was most likely not in order.

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agreed at meeting that no smoking passed.  referred to executive board/House committee for "plan" to implement.  Member brought up discussion again of when and was reminded that last "motion" was to give to exec. board and House to bring plan and costs to general membership.    

Yes sir, there was no investigation into the costing or implementation to the motion.  No defined instructions or time frame.

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3 hours ago, Guest Legion said:

agreed at meeting that no smoking passed.  referred to executive board/House committee for "plan" to implement.  Member brought up discussion again of when and was reminded that last "motion" was to give to exec. board and House to bring plan and costs to general membership.    

Yes sir, there was no investigation into the costing or implementation to the motion.  No defined instructions or time frame.

If a member wishes to make a motion regarding a timeline for the board to complete this matter, or otherwise provide instructions to the board regarding this issue, then he is free to do so.

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