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motion failed and then changed for revote at a later session


Guest bfa03

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Due to our work schedule we have 3 sessions that constitute 1 meeting.

A proposal was listed in the meeting agenda and posted for the entire membership to see.  At the first session the motion was read in entirety and there was discussion, The motion was called for vote (as is) and seconded with no amendments or changes.  The motion failed.  The same motion failed at the next 2 sessions. The motion failed 15 -0.  However, during one of those 2 later sessions a new motion was made using only a part of the original motion.  The new motion was voted on by members who attended those 2 sessions and it Passed 10 - 0. 

This does not seem like the correct process.  Should the new proposal (change) be brought before the entire membership at the next meeting?  This seems to have been used to avoid parts they did not like or agree with and to get just get the piece they liked. 

The original author was not available to amend his proposal.  The new language was not made available to the entire membership for discussion or vote. Not every member was given a fair and equal chance to debate, discuss or vote on the issue.

What are the violations to RONR?  Where would I find them?  I have looked under Motions and what I find is more related to changing a motion at the time of discussion or amended by the author.

Thank you

 

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Per our Constitution:  There shall be three (3) meetings scheduled whenever general local membership meetings or special local membership meetings are held. These meetings shall occur within a twenty-four (24) hour period. All three meetings are considered as constituting one meeting as far as total votes are concerned and also the final results that are to be determined.

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1 hour ago, bfa03 said:

Per our Constitution:  There shall be three (3) meetings scheduled whenever general local membership meetings or special local membership meetings are held. These meetings shall occur within a twenty-four (24) hour period. All three meetings are considered as constituting one meeting as far as total votes are concerned and also the final results that are to be determined.

RONR has no rules for an arrangement like this.

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I agree with Josh Martin and Reverend Ed.

None of us get to vote in interpreting this organization's bylaws, but it seems to me, based on a reading of the bylaw provisions that are quoted, that in order for something to be adopted, the final version of whatever is adopted must be considered at each of the three meetings.

It seems to me that if a motion is amended at the second or third meeting, the amended version must also be voted on by the members who attend the first meeting so that all members ultimately are able to vote on exactly the same proposal.

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1 minute ago, Richard Brown said:

It seems to me that if a motion is amended at the second or third meeting, the amended version must also be voted on by the members who attend the first meeting so that all members ultimately are able to vote on exactly the same proposal.

How is that possible if the first meeting adjourned?  The next time they convene what if different members attend different meetings because of their work schedule?

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Our meeting schedule (3 meetings) in only to provide all members the opportunity to attend a meeting due to 24/7 work schedules.  All business is to be conducted just as any other meeting, assembly or convention in which members attend at one specific time to discuss business.  What would be the process if there were only one meeting time, instead of the 3 like we have? 

Our Constitution does not address the issue of meeting agenda and proposals except for notification to the membership.  But does fall back to Robert's Rules if not addressed in the Constitution.

If a proposal is voted down then amended by any member other than its author, to include only a portion of the original proposal, is it considered new business? Can it be voted on during that same membership meeting?  Members were essentially kept out of the voting process by not allowing them the ability to hear, discuss or vote on new wording to a proposal.

(There was no motion to amend or rescind called during any of the meetings) There were members who voted based on one proposal who were not provided the opportunity to be involved in new proposal language

If I understand correctly.   I can make a proposal have it posted to the membership in advance, as required, a vote is taken at the first of 3 meeting.  If it is voted down.  Another member could then make a motion using only a part of the original motion and vote at the same meeting?  

 

 

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9 minutes ago, George Mervosh said:

How is that possible if the first meeting adjourned?  The next time they convene what if different members attend different meetings because of their work schedule?

Good point, unless they have a provision for the first meeting group to meet again. Otherwise, I suppose they will have to either start over with the next regular meeting or call a special meeting. Ultimately, they have to figure this one out for themselves. I know this sort of setup takes place sometimes with unions and I've never understood how they can make this sort of thing work without some very detailed rules for dealing with it.

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2 minutes ago, Richard Brown said:

Good point, unless they have a provision for the first meeting to meet again. Otherwise, I suppose they will have to either start over with the next regular meeting or call a special meeting. Ultimately, they have to figure this one out for themselves. I know this sort of setup takes place sometimes with unions and I've never understood how they can make this sort of thing work without some very detailed rules for dealing with it.

Yeah, J.J. did an article on shift meetings.  Tough stuff to figure out.  Sadly, at least here, Josh and Ed provided the only applicable answers.

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Thank you all for your time. 

I realize you can not speak to our Constitution or Bylaws.  I was just curious of the process used in Robert's Rules as I have read the section on motions and it seems that in most cases it takes the original author on some part to either agree to amend or to rescind the proposal.  I just can not find what happens if the author does not, can a new proposal be made in its place after a vote.

Does it constitute new business? 

If someone can refer me more closely to the section in RR that might give me better insight, I would appreciate it.

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43 minutes ago, bfa03 said:

Thank you all for your time. 

I realize you can not speak to our Constitution or Bylaws.  I was just curious of the process used in Robert's Rules as I have read the section on motions and it seems that in most cases it takes the original author on some part to either agree to amend or to rescind the proposal.  I just can not find what happens if the author does not, can a new proposal be made in its place after a vote.

Does it constitute new business? 

If someone can refer me more closely to the section in RR that might give me better insight, I would appreciate it.

Try looking at what is said on pages 295-298 of RONR (11th ed.).

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3 hours ago, Guest bfa03 said:

Our meeting schedule (3 meetings) in only to provide all members the opportunity to attend a meeting due to 24/7 work schedules.  All business is to be conducted just as any other meeting, assembly or convention in which members attend at one specific time to discuss business.  What would be the process if there were only one meeting time, instead of the 3 like we have?

If I ignore the issue of the split meetings (although this seems like the parliamentary equivalent of "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"), I see no problem at all with what happened.

3 hours ago, Guest bfa03 said:

If a proposal is voted down then amended by any member other than its author, to include only a portion of the original proposal, is it considered new business?

Yes.

3 hours ago, Guest bfa03 said:

Can it be voted on during that same membership meeting?

Yes.

3 hours ago, Guest bfa03 said:

If I understand correctly.   I can make a proposal have it posted to the membership in advance, as required, a vote is taken at the first of 3 meeting.  If it is voted down.  Another member could then make a motion using only a part of the original motion and vote at the same meeting?  

RONR does not require previous notice in most cases. Do your rules require previous notice for this motion?

2 hours ago, bfa03 said:

I realize you can not speak to our Constitution or Bylaws.  I was just curious of the process used in Robert's Rules as I have read the section on motions and it seems that in most cases it takes the original author on some part to either agree to amend or to rescind the proposal.

RONR says no such thing. The original author does not need to agree to amend or rescind a proposal.

2 hours ago, bfa03 said:

Does it constitute new business? 

Yes. If a motion is defeated, and some other motion is made at a later meeting, this is New Business, notwithstanding that it was related to the motion defeated at the earlier meeting. (In fact, it would be New Business even if the wording of the motion was the same.)

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11 hours ago, Josh Martin said:

If I ignore the issue of the split meetings (although this seems like the parliamentary equivalent of "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"), I see no problem at all with what happened.

I think I do.

As I understand the facts, the motion as originally proposed was still pending at the time when the revised version was moved, considered, and voted on during the second of the three sessions of this three session meeting (or the second meeting of this three meeting session, whichever you prefer), and the original proposal was considered and voted on again (for the final time) during the third session while the revised version was also pending.

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14 hours ago, Josh Martin said:

RONR does not require previous notice in most cases. Do your rules require previous notice for this motion?

Our Constitution states: The agenda shall be included in the notice of all general membership meetings. Any member desiring to have a matter of new business considered and acted on at a general membership meeting shall notify the president at least sixteen (16) days prior to the meeting unless a member has provided notice to the membership at the previous general membership meeting.

The proposal was listed, as a whole, as new business in the meeting agenda.  

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5 hours ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

I think I do.

As I understand the facts, the motion as originally proposed was still pending at the time when the revised version was moved, considered, and voted on during the second of the three sessions of this three session meeting (or the second meeting of this three meeting session, whichever you prefer), and the original proposal was considered and voted on again (for the final time) during the third session while the revised version was also pending.

And I think that you might be right.  If the second meeting is part of the same session, the second motion could not be introduced.  Ideally, each meeting should be separate session, in this type of arrangement.

I would suggest that you might need to change your bylaws to make this more workable.   This article may be of some assistance:  

http://aipparl.org/pdf/ShiftMeetings.pdf

 

 

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3 hours ago, bfa03 said:

Our Constitution states: The agenda shall be included in the notice of all general membership meetings. Any member desiring to have a matter of new business considered and acted on at a general membership meeting shall notify the president at least sixteen (16) days prior to the meeting unless a member has provided notice to the membership at the previous general membership meeting.

The proposal was listed, as a whole, as new business in the meeting agenda.  

Then it appears that your rules would also require notice of the new motion.

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