Membership Voting Via Ballot

[Guest Leslie G.]

If the voting membership is given a ballot and on this ballot, you are only given option 1 or 2, but not a none or neither; can this be done?

[Hieu H. Huynh]

What is being voted on?

[Guest Leslie G.]

8 minutes ago, Hieu H. Huynh said:

What is being voted on?

Hieu, the board has put two new logo's to be voted on and that winner will go against the current logo.  So, for people who either do not like the two new options or want too keep the old; there is nothing in the ballot stating such.

So, if there is a 2/3 vote on not liking either option, would that make this portion of voting defeated?

[Gary Novosielski]

You say that the winner will go against the current logo.  So presumably after the decision has been made between the two, there will have to be another vote to substitute that new logo for the old.  If that second vote fails, the current logo remains unchanged.

[Greg Goodwiller, PRP]

If I am reading this correctly, those who want to keep the existing logo will still have the opportunity to so vote. That shouldn't keep them from voting on which of the two new ones they like better (or perhaps more politically, voting for the one that they think is the least likely to be finally adopted at the end of the process). But abstaining from voting will not affect whether or not one of the new logos is selected.

If a member believes that a majority of the membership doesn't like either of the two new logos, when the matter is pending the member should move to either refer the matter to some group of people for the purpose of developing more options, or to postpone indefinitely, which if adopted has the effect of not adopting either option and ending the matter (at least, for that session).

I would add that the process being followed here is not standard parliamentary procedure. It is basically using election procedures for a matter other than an election. Ordinarily, someone would move that one of the options be adopted. Then someone who favors the other one would move the adoption of the other logo as a substitute motion. Following debate, the assembly would vote on the question, "shall the substitute motion become the main motion." That vote determines which of the two new logos goes up against the current one. Then having made that choice, the vote proceeds to the adoption of the main motion - which is the point at which those who wish to keep the current logo can state their case, and vote against the motion's adoption.

Edited November 15, 2018 at 07:47 PM by Greg Goodwiller, PRP

[Guest Leslie G.]

4 minutes ago, Gary Novosielski said:

You say that the winner will go against the current logo.  So presumably after the decision has been made between the two, there will have to be another vote to substitute that new logo for the old.  If that second vote fails, the current logo remains unchanged.

Hi Gary, that is right.  The question that remains unclear is...there are several members that feel they are being forced to vote on an option in the first round, when they don't agree with either; is it ok for the board to do this?  The current ballot gives them no voice as a voting member.

[Guest Leslie G.]

6 minutes ago, Greg Goodwiller, PRP said:

If I am reading this correctly, those who want to keep the existing logo will still have the opportunity to so vote. That shouldn't keep them from voting on which of the two new ones they like better (or perhaps more politically, voting for the one that they think is the least likely to be finally adopted at the end of the process). But abstaining from voting will not affect whether or not one of the new logos is selected.

If a member believes that a majority of the membership doesn't like either of the two new logos, when the matter is pending the member should move to either refer the matter to some group of people for the purpose of developing more options, or to postpone indefinitely, which if adopted has the effect of not adopting either option and ending the matter (at least, for that session).

I would add that the process being followed here is not standard parliamentary procedure. It is basically using election procedures for a matter other than an election. Ordinarily, someone would move that one of the options be adopted. Then someone who favors the other one would move the adoption of the other logo as a substitute motion. Following debate, the assembly would vote on the question, "shall the substitute motion become the main motion." That vote determines which of the two new logos goes up against the current one. Then having made that choice, the vote proceeds to the adoption of the main motion - which is the point at which those who wish to keep the current logo can state their case, and vote against the motion's adoption.

Hi Greg, this makes sense.  Our board decided to move forward with the designing of the new logo.  The voting membership was divided into groups under each of the board members.  From there, a committee chair was selected for their group and ideas would come to the committee chair .  All the committee chairs were allowed to select the two proposed logos moving forward, into the 1st round of option 1 or option 2.  The whole process just doesn't seem to follow the right process.

Our club is a National one and so we only have one annual meeting a year.  This board seems to think that they can make up their own rules and votes as they please.  Do you know of a way to correct them on the ways of voting?

[Greg Goodwiller, PRP]

27 minutes ago, Guest Leslie G. said:

Hi Gary, that is right.  The question that remains unclear is...there are several members that feel they are being forced to vote on an option in the first round, when they don't agree with either; is it ok for the board to do this?  The current ballot gives them no voice as a voting member.

No one is ever "forced to vote" under Robert's Rules. They always have the right to abstain. 

[Greg Goodwiller, PRP]

10 minutes ago, Guest Leslie G. said:

Hi Greg, this makes sense.  Our board decided to move forward with the designing of the new logo.  The voting membership was divided into groups under each of the board members.  From there, a committee chair was selected for their group and ideas would come to the committee chair .  All the committee chairs were allowed to select the two proposed logos moving forward, into the 1st round of option 1 or option 2.  The whole process just doesn't seem to follow the right process.

Our club is a National one and so we only have one annual meeting a year.  This board seems to think that they can make up their own rules and votes as they please.  Do you know of a way to correct them on the ways of voting?

Assuming your bylaws list the current edition of Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised (RONR) as your parliamentary authority, ask them to show you where the procedure they are following is described. 

[Guest Who's Coming to Dinner]

44 minutes ago, Guest Leslie G. said:

Hi Greg, this makes sense.  Our board decided to move forward with the designing of the new logo.  The voting membership was divided into groups under each of the board members.  From there, a committee chair was selected for their group and ideas would come to the committee chair .  All the committee chairs were allowed to select the two proposed logos moving forward, into the 1st round of option 1 or option 2.  The whole process just doesn't seem to follow the right process.

This strikes me as a nonbinding administrative procedure rather than a deliberative one. In other words, they are canvassing the members to narrow down candidates for a new logo. When changing the logo is proposed at the meeting, that is the time when parliamentary rules about voting would apply. At least that is one way to look at it.

[Atul Kapur]

1 hour ago, Greg Goodwiller, PRP said:

I would add that the process being followed here is not standard parliamentary procedure. It is basically using election procedures for a matter other than an election. Ordinarily, someone would move that one of the options be adopted. Then someone who favors the other one would move the adoption of the other logo as a substitute motion. Following debate, the assembly would vote on the question, "shall the substitute motion become the main motion." That vote determines which of the two new logos goes up against the current one. Then having made that choice, the vote proceeds to the adoption of the main motion - which is the point at which those who wish to keep the current logo can state their case, and vote against the motion's adoption.

This is, as Guest Leslie G confirms, exactly what they are doing. The only difference is that someone has decided to vote by ballot. Page 412, lines 9-11 and lines 20-21 say that the assembly can decide to do this. It appears that the board has tried to come up with an alternative given their situation of only holding one meeting a year.
Guest Leslie G, are there any bylaws or rules that give your board the authority to make this decision?

[Gary Novosielski]

2 hours ago, Guest Leslie G. said:

Hi Greg, this makes sense.  Our board decided to move forward with the designing of the new logo.  The voting membership was divided into groups under each of the board members.  From there, a committee chair was selected for their group and ideas would come to the committee chair .  All the committee chairs were allowed to select the two proposed logos moving forward, into the 1st round of option 1 or option 2.  The whole process just doesn't seem to follow the right process.

Our club is a National one and so we only have one annual meeting a year.  This board seems to think that they can make up their own rules and votes as they please.  Do you know of a way to correct them on the ways of voting?

The board has the right to bring a recommended new logo to the membership at the annual meeting, and presumably they will find general members to move and second it.  The general membership, once this is moved, has all the rights to adopt, reject, amend, postpone, refer, or otherwise dispose of the motion. The board cannot set rules for the annual meeting, and any proposal they bring to it, if the rules in RONR apply, is nothing more than a recommendation.  If they recommend two choices instead of just one, there's no harm in asking the members to decide between them, as long as there is still a vote on whether or not to change the logo at all.

If a member believes that this "choose one" ballot is improper because it has not been approved by the membership, he can raise a Point of Order to that effect, and Appeal if necessary.  Just remember that the board does not run the annual meeting.  The board is not in session and so technically is not even present during the annual meeting, except possibly as individual members, with no more power than any other member.