Guest Thomas Posted December 27, 2018 at 01:07 PM Report Share Posted December 27, 2018 at 01:07 PM If a member is the sitting Sgt. in Arms and decides to run for Vice President. During the voting process, can he then vote for himself for Vice President seeing that he is using his vote as the current Sgt. in Arms? Thank you, Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted December 27, 2018 at 01:39 PM Report Share Posted December 27, 2018 at 01:39 PM 30 minutes ago, Guest Thomas said: If a member is the sitting Sgt. in Arms and decides to run for Vice President. During the voting process, can he then vote for himself for Vice President seeing that he is using his vote as the current Sgt. in Arms? Thank you, Thomas If he is a member of the group that is voting he can vote for anyone he likes, including himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Posted December 27, 2018 at 02:02 PM Report Share Posted December 27, 2018 at 02:02 PM Thank you, Sir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Katz Posted December 27, 2018 at 02:17 PM Report Share Posted December 27, 2018 at 02:17 PM 1 hour ago, Guest Thomas said: During the voting process, can he then vote for himself for Vice President seeing that he is using his vote as the current Sgt. in Arms? Agreeing with Mr. Honemann that anyone with the right to vote can vote for whomever he likes, what does the last part of this sentence mean? Note that, in any case, each person (unless your bylaws say otherwise) gets only one vote, regardless of how many hats he may wear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Posted December 27, 2018 at 05:03 PM Report Share Posted December 27, 2018 at 05:03 PM Joshua, Not sure what happened to my response I just wrote. I must not have hit submit, but I was just clarifying that he can in fact run for VP and vote for himself as he is the current Sgt. in Arms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted December 27, 2018 at 06:50 PM Report Share Posted December 27, 2018 at 06:50 PM 1 hour ago, Thomas said: ... as he is the current Sgt. in Arms. Does being in the position of "Sgt in Arms" give the person the right to vote? Or Are you saying that someone must be a member of the association to be the Sgt. in Arms? I think we are all in agreement here that a member can vote for himself but we are wondering what being Sgt. in Arms has to do with that. BTW, the phrase in RONR is Sgt-AT-Arms (p. 350, line 27 & other indexed places) -- is your "IN" arms something different? Just wondering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Posted December 27, 2018 at 06:56 PM Report Share Posted December 27, 2018 at 06:56 PM 5 minutes ago, jstackpo said: Does being in the position of "Sgt in Arms" give the person the right to vote? Or Are you saying that someone must be a member of the association to be the Sgt. in Arms? I think we are all in agreement here that a member can vote for himself but we are wondering what being Sgt. in Arms has to do with that. BTW, the phrase in RONR is Sgt-AT-Arms (p. 350, line 27 & other indexed places) -- is your "IN" arms something different? Just wondering. You are correct. It's At arms. I have never been in this position and I have a feeling other members will try to claim he does not have a right to Vote for himself. I want to be ready with facts when the question arises. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted December 27, 2018 at 08:18 PM Report Share Posted December 27, 2018 at 08:18 PM A useful response to a questioning "other member" (if a bit confrontational) is to ask him/her to show you the rule that prohibits the Sgt-at-Arms from voting for himself. He won't be able to, of course, unless it is a rule hidden away in your bylaws. Don't take "Oh, it's in Roberts somewhere" for an answer!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Posted December 27, 2018 at 08:24 PM Report Share Posted December 27, 2018 at 08:24 PM I like that a lot, have them provide the rule if they want to challenge something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted December 27, 2018 at 10:40 PM Report Share Posted December 27, 2018 at 10:40 PM 3 hours ago, Thomas said: You are correct. It's At arms. I have never been in this position and I have a feeling other members will try to claim he does not have a right to Vote for himself. I want to be ready with facts when the question arises. There are also explicit statements regarding a member’s right to vote for himself. RONR makes it clear that the rule regarding personal interest does not apply in this situation and, even if it did, the member would still retain the right to vote. “The rule on abstaining from voting on a question of direct personal interest does not mean that a member should not vote for himself for an office or other position to which members generally are eligible...” (RONR, 11th ed., pgs. 407-408) “No member should vote on a question in which he has a direct personal or pecuniary interest not common to other members of the organization. For example, if a motion proposes that the organization enter into a contract with a commercial firm of which a member of the organization is an officer and from which contract he would derive personal pecuniary profit, the member should abstain from voting on the motion. However, no member can be compelled to refrain from voting in such circumstances.” (RONR, 11th ed., pg. 407, emphasis added) In the event that the concerns relate specifically to the member’s position as Sergeant-at-Arms, I would note there is nothing in RONR’s rules pertaining to the Sergeant-at-Arms suggesting that this position entails any special restrictions on the rights of a member who serves in this position. See RONR, 11th ed., pgs. 462. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Who's Coming to Dinner Posted December 28, 2018 at 01:40 AM Report Share Posted December 28, 2018 at 01:40 AM 6 hours ago, Thomas said: You are correct. It's At arms. I have never been in this position and I have a feeling other members will try to claim he does not have a right to Vote for himself. I want to be ready with facts when the question arises. Here is a picture of then-President Barack Obama voting in 2012. Do you imagine he is voting for Mr. Romney?? https://cdn.geekwire.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/161123-obama-voting.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atul Kapur Posted December 28, 2018 at 01:47 AM Report Share Posted December 28, 2018 at 01:47 AM Thomas, the question I have is: Why would this issue arise with the Sergeant-at-Arms and not with any other member of your board? In other words, if the Vice-President was running to become the President would you be asking the same question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted December 28, 2018 at 07:55 AM Report Share Posted December 28, 2018 at 07:55 AM 18 hours ago, Guest Thomas said: If a member is the sitting Sgt. in Arms and decides to run for Vice President. During the voting process, can he then vote for himself for Vice President seeing that he is using his vote as the current Sgt. in Arms? Thank you, Thomas Are you saying that if he were not the Sergeant at Arms, he wouldn't be allowed to vote? Members are allowed to vote, whether they hold office or not. If he's a member, he can vote. And why would he not vote for himself? And presuming you are voting by ballot, how would you know whom he voted for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Posted December 28, 2018 at 12:01 PM Report Share Posted December 28, 2018 at 12:01 PM 10 hours ago, Atul Kapur said: Thomas, the question I have is: Why would this issue arise with the Sergeant-at-Arms and not with any other member of your board? In other words, if the Vice-President was running to become the President would you be asking the same question? Yes, Sir. I know we have people in our org. that will claim that since he is running for VP he is vacating his seat as Sergeant At Arms. Even though this is not true. I just know they will try to claim he cannot vote for himself running for the VP position. Basically, I want to have a solid argument, proof and grounds to shut that argument down. I think like any organization you have some nay-sayers, some people whom have their own personal interest and/or are used to doing things their way for a long time. I am looking to come in with structure. I want to do things the right way, all the time. Inclusion for all. And I know I have a long way to go, but I want and need so much more knowledge with Robert's Rules. I appreciate all the help here, everyone is amazing. And I am sure I'll be bugging a few of you with all of my questions, haha but it's truly because I want to do things the right way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted December 28, 2018 at 01:05 PM Report Share Posted December 28, 2018 at 01:05 PM You are more than welcome to bug us to your heart's content. Tell your nay-saying friends to look no further than page 3 of RONR (if their attention span is adequate to get them that far in) where they will read "A member ... has the right ... to vote." Couldn't be more solid grounds than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Katz Posted December 28, 2018 at 02:54 PM Report Share Posted December 28, 2018 at 02:54 PM 2 hours ago, Thomas said: I know we have people in our org. that will claim that since he is running for VP he is vacating his seat as Sergeant At Arms. I think this is the part we're trying to figure out about your rules. Would this person have the right to vote if he were not SAA? What is the voting body? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Posted December 28, 2018 at 03:45 PM Report Share Posted December 28, 2018 at 03:45 PM He would not. Voting body consists of Coaches, Commissioners and then VP, Secretary, SAA and Treasurer. We have some people who have been in the org for a long time and have only done things their way, but when changes happen in the next few months, I want to be as prepared as possible. My fear was they would try to argue he cannot vote for himself for the VP position (even though he is the sitting SAA) I feel more confident in shutting that point down. Again, a lot of this is me being so new to this world. I have sat as VP for a couple years but our org has been pretty lax on structure and order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Katz Posted December 28, 2018 at 04:11 PM Report Share Posted December 28, 2018 at 04:11 PM 25 minutes ago, Thomas said: Voting body consists of Coaches, Commissioners and then VP, Secretary, SAA and Treasurer. In other words, the officers are elected by the board? In that case, how do they get onto the board? Does the outgoing board elect the new one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Posted December 28, 2018 at 04:23 PM Report Share Posted December 28, 2018 at 04:23 PM That's where I am starting to wonder if we have to redo the Bylaws. There is no term set for any of the board members, only the officers. And the only way one can get in is if someone is removed due to an egregious action and creates a vacancy or because they resign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Katz Posted December 28, 2018 at 04:26 PM Report Share Posted December 28, 2018 at 04:26 PM 1 minute ago, Thomas said: only the officers Yes, but what about them? I think you told us in a different thread that the officers are elected at the annual meeting, but this thread seems to suggest that they are elected by the board. Which am I misunderstanding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted December 28, 2018 at 04:27 PM Report Share Posted December 28, 2018 at 04:27 PM Oh.. Kay... suppose there is a vacancy on the Board for whatever reason. How, who, or what group, has the bylaw given authority to fill the vacancy? I get the impression that you are (relatively) new to the board. How did you get there? For that matter, do your bylaws say how many board members there are supposed to be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Katz Posted December 28, 2018 at 04:29 PM Report Share Posted December 28, 2018 at 04:29 PM You know, I'm really starting to suspect that one of the following is correct: a) your bylaws contain multiple contradictions, ambiguities, and gaps b) your organization has woefully misunderstood and misapplied the bylaws Either way, if the organization is of sufficient size and has sufficient assets, maybe it's worth your while to hire a professional parliamentarian to look over your bylaws and sort this out. We're not going to be able to do it here. Both the American Institute of Parliamentarians and the National Association of Parliamentarians maintain referral lists. If the organization is too small or has too little money for this to be worth it (or if the board does not want to) it's likely you'll be best off working on a bylaw revision (perhaps with a committee to work on it) rather than trying to sort out this mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted December 28, 2018 at 04:40 PM Report Share Posted December 28, 2018 at 04:40 PM I'm thinking this should have stopped at post #2, or at least the thank you in post #3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted December 28, 2018 at 10:07 PM Report Share Posted December 28, 2018 at 10:07 PM 5 hours ago, George Mervosh said: I'm thinking this should have stopped at post #2, or at least the thank you in post #3. I agree. Dan Honemann summed it up very succinctly. If the sergeant-at-arms is a member of the voting body, he has the right to vote for anyone he wants to, including the right to vote for himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmuel Gerber Posted January 2, 2019 at 09:20 AM Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 at 09:20 AM On 12/28/2018 at 5:07 PM, Richard Brown said: I agree. Dan Honemann summed it up very succinctly. If the sergeant-at-arms is a member of the voting body, he has the right to vote for anyone he wants to, including the right to vote for himself. But probably best not to vote for Mitt; he's a little busy these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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