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Caryn Ann Harlos

Consideration of a Substitute

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2 hours ago, Caryn Ann Harlos said:

When perfecting both the pending resolution and the substitute, is only one additional level allowed or are they separated and two levels of amendments allowed?

Only one.

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Okay I have a followup.

 

Only one each?

I am taking the distance Wisconsin Parliamentary Course and I asked this question and was given the answer that the pending resolution can then have two levels of amendment and the substitute can have only one.

This seemed inconsistent to me.

 

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Well, it is certainly true that two levels of amendment (primary and secondary) can be proposed to a pending main motion (or resolution), whereas a pending primary amendment (whether in the form of a substitute or not) can have only one level of amendment proposed to it.

I'm afraid that I do not really understand your question, but maybe the following statement will be of some assistance. If a primary amendment in the form of a proposed substitute for a main motion (or resolution) is pending, both the main motion (or resolution) and the proposed substitute are open to amendment by secondary amendment, but any such secondary amendment is not itself open to amendment.

 

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2 hours ago, Caryn Ann Harlos said:

Only one each?

And to be sure we state it correctly, secondary amendments to the substitute (or the Main Motion) can be made any number of times, just not all at once or as "tertiary" amendments.  You dispose of one before going on to the next one somebody may have.

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The answer you were given in the class may not have been worded as clearly as it could have been, but I think I understand it. The original resolution indeed can  have two levels of amendment: the substitute  (primary amendment) and additional amendments to perfect the original (seconday amendments--one at a time). The substitue, however, being a primary amendment, can have only one level (secondary amendments--one at a time). 

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11 hours ago, Caryn Ann Harlos said:

Okay I have a followup.

 

Only one each?

I am taking the distance Wisconsin Parliamentary Course and I asked this question and was given the answer that the pending resolution can then have two levels of amendment and the substitute can have only one.

This seemed inconsistent to me.

 

A main motion may have two levels of amendment pending at any one time.  If an amendment in the nature of a substitute is offered, that uses up one level, and at that point, you can have only one more level of amendment to the substitute.  

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Caryn Ann, agreeing with Weldon Merritt and Gary Novosielski as well as the other posters, I also believe the school perhaps did give you the correct answer but just didn't explain it well.  Hopefully, that's the case. 

I hope the explanations given here help clear it up.  After an amendment by substitution if offered, both the original motion and the substitute are in the position of being susceptible to only one pending secondary amendment at a time.  The substitute motion is itself a primary amendment and the original motion has itself been amended by the substitution.  So, each one can have only one additional amendment pending at one time.

The original motion was subject to both a primary and a secondary amendment at the time it was introduced, but the proposed substitution counts as a primary amendment leaving the original resolution subject to only one secondary amendment at a time.  The substitute motion, being an amendment itself, is also susceptible to only one secondary amendment at a time. 

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1 hour ago, Richard Brown said:

Caryn Ann, agreeing with Weldon Merritt and Gary Novosielski as well as the other posters, I also believe the school perhaps did give you the correct answer but just didn't explain it well.  Hopefully, that's the case. 

I hope the explanations given here help clear it up.  After an amendment by substitution if offered, both the original motion and the substitute are in the position of being susceptible to only one pending secondary amendment at a time.  The substitute motion is itself a primary amendment and the original motion has itself been amended by the substitution.  So, each one can have only one additional amendment pending at one time.

The original motion was subject to both a primary and a secondary amendment at the time it was introduced, but the proposed substitution counts as a primary amendment leaving the original resolution subject to only one secondary amendment at a time.  The substitute motion, being an amendment itself, is also susceptible to only one secondary amendment at a time. 

I'm sorry to say that I don't think this explanation is helpful or correct. The rule at issue is this:

"But for purposes of secondary amendment, the motion to substitute is looked upon as resolved into its two elements, the paragraph to be struck out and the paragraph to be inserted." (RONR 11th ed., p. 154, ll. 10-13)

The motion to substitute is a primary amendment. While this primary amendment is pending, any amendments offered to the pending (original) motion are in the nature of secondary amendments to the paragraph to be struck out; and any amendments offered to the substitute are in the nature of secondary amendments to the paragraph to be inserted.

 

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1 hour ago, Shmuel Gerber said:

I'm sorry to say that I don't think this explanation is helpful or correct. The rule at issue is this:

"But for purposes of secondary amendment, the motion to substitute is looked upon as resolved into its two elements, the paragraph to be struck out and the paragraph to be inserted." (RONR 11th ed., p. 154, ll. 10-13)

The motion to substitute is a primary amendment. While this primary amendment is pending, any amendments offered to the pending (original) motion are in the nature of secondary amendments to the paragraph to be struck out; and any amendments offered to the substitute are in the nature of secondary amendments to the paragraph to be inserted.

 

I'm not sure what the conflict is.  The substitute is the primary amendment, and any other subsequent amendments are secondary.  it is interesting to note which half they are secondary to, but the salient fact is that you have, at that point, run out of levels, since tertiary amendments to either half not in order.

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6 minutes ago, Gary Novosielski said:

I'm not sure what the conflict is.

Me neither. After the first six posts, this topic seems to have branched out in various confusing ways.

9 minutes ago, Gary Novosielski said:

The substitute is the primary amendment, and any other subsequent amendments are secondary.

No. The motion to substitute is the primary amendment, which consists of two parts: striking out the original paragraph(s) and inserting the proposed substitute.

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2 hours ago, Shmuel Gerber said:

No. The motion to substitute is the primary amendment, which consists of two parts: striking out the original paragraph(s) and inserting the proposed substitute.

 

Isn't that what I said?  Oh, I see.  I said substitute as shorthand for amendment in the nature of a substitute.  And you're saying that the substitute (the language to be substituted)  is really only half of the amendment.  Quite so.

That's a fine quibble indeed.  As a confirmed nit picker myself, I salute you. :) 

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