Speaking limitations

[Guest GGG]

My HOA Board of Directors have been limiting Home Owners Speaking times during the meetings open forum to just three to five minutes. They also don't allow Home Owners to be involved in the discussion of agenda items. Is this permitted per Robert's Rules?

[jstackpo]

Perfectly proper for the Board meetings.  The home owners, in general, are not members of the board so have none of the rights of (board) membership.

[Hieu H. Huynh]

The membership could take action at the general membership meetings.

[Guest GGG]

Our Board is new and a general membership meeting as far as I know. Not even sure what that is to be honest. I guess I'm also at a loss for understanding the point of Association Members being present at a meeting if we're meant to be silent and we're so limited when we do get a chance to speak.

[Guest GGG]

*doesn't have a general membership meeting as far as I know*

Unless you were referring to the regular Board meeting where there do allow for an open forum. Then that is the point at which our time is limited.

[Guest Who's Coming to Dinner]

The Board and the general membership are separate deliberative bodies with their own meetings. Under RONR, only members of the body which is meeting have a right to be present and participate. The body may permit other persons to be present and to be heard to some extent, but it isn't required by RONR.

In many organizations, there is only one regular general membership meeting per year at which the board is elected. The business of the society is conducted through the year by the board alone.

[Joshua Katz]

1 hour ago, Guest GGG said:

*doesn't have a general membership meeting as far as I know*

 

How does your board get elected?

1 hour ago, Guest GGG said:

I guess I'm also at a loss for understanding the point of Association Members being present at a meeting if we're meant to be silent and we're so limited when we do get a chance to speak.

Often people who are not part of a deliberative body, but are impacted by its decisions, wish to observe the deliberations of that body. Or, at least, it is something of a check on power to permit them to do so, even if they don't do so often.

[Guest GGG]

On 1/19/2019 at 8:13 PM, Joshua Katz said:

How does your board get elected?

Often people who are not part of a deliberative body, but are impacted by its decisions, wish to observe the deliberations of that body. Or, at least, it is something of a check on power to permit them to do so, even if they don't do so often.

Annually by the home owners. This recently occurred in December. Is there anything in Robert's Rules that expressly allows or denies Members of the Association the privilege to add agenda items or to speak on agenda items?

[Joshua Katz]

1 minute ago, Guest GGG said:

This recently occurred in December.

The meeting at which this occurred would be your annual membership meeting, most likely. 

Yes, the rule on board meetings is clear: non-members of the board have no *right* to speak at board meetings or to make motions, which includes amending the agenda. The board may permit them to speak, or (perhaps) to make motions, although not to vote. 

At your membership meeting, though, you can amend the bylaws to change this rule, if the organization wishes.

[Gary Novosielski]

3 hours ago, Guest GGG said:

Annually by the home owners. This recently occurred in December. Is there anything in Robert's Rules that expressly allows or denies Members of the Association the privilege to add agenda items or to speak on agenda items?

No, quite the contrary.  Non-members of the body that is meeting (the board) have no right even to attend such a meeting.  So the Members of the association would only be permitted to set the agenda and speak at their own Annual General Meeting if the rules in RONR apply.

But your bylaws may grant general members the right to attend meetings of the board, and for all we know might grant them additional rights as well.  You'll have to check your bylaws to find out, though.

[Guest GGG]

6 hours ago, Joshua Katz said:

The meeting at which this occurred would be your annual membership meeting, most likely. 

Yes, the rule on board meetings is clear: non-members of the board have no *right* to speak at board meetings or to make motions, which includes amending the agenda. The board may permit them to speak, or (perhaps) to make motions, although not to vote. 

At your membership meeting, though, you can amend the bylaws to change this rule, if the organization wishes.

I am not interested in making motions or voting. And while at the Annual Meeting it was mentioned that home owners could add agenda items if they wish, it was not done when I requested so. I simply want to speak my concerns on topics that directly effect me and my community. It's a hostile Board when it comes to community members whom question anything. It's an apathetic Board when it comes to the meetings, they'd rather not be there. The problematic members are serving for another year. So can you, or anyone else, point to where in RONR it says that non board members do not have a right to speak?

3 hours ago, Gary Novosielski said:

No, quite the contrary.  Non-members of the body that is meeting (the board) have no right even to attend such a meeting.  So the Members of the association would only be permitted to set the agenda and speak at their own Annual General Meeting if the rules in RONR apply.

But your bylaws may grant general members the right to attend meetings of the board, and for all we know might grant them additional rights as well.  You'll have to check your bylaws to find out, though.

The bylaws do declare all meetings are open to home owners, but doesn't say anything regarding speaking rights. I'm just looking for some direction in how to deal with a rouge board prone to bullying tactics.

Thanks every for your responses so far!

[Joshua Katz]

2 minutes ago, Guest GGG said:

I am not interested in making motions or voting.

Making a motion is the only way a member could add something to the agenda, which is why I mentioned making a motion. Even then, though, the board can vote down the agenda item, which is why I mentioned voting.

 

2 minutes ago, Guest GGG said:

And while at the Annual Meeting it was mentioned that home owners could add agenda items if they wish, it was not done when I requested so.

Is this regarding the agenda for the annual meeting, or the board meetings? 

 

3 minutes ago, Guest GGG said:

So can you, or anyone else, point to where in RONR it says that non board members do not have a right to speak?

"Nonmembers, on the other hand - or a particular non-member or group of nonmembers - can be excluded at any time from part or all of a meeting of a society, or from all of its meetings." p. 644, ll. 29-31.

"In contrast, the rules may be suspended to allow a nonmember to speak in debate." p. 263 n*. Of course, if it requires a suspension of the rules to allow a nonmember to speak, then a member has no general right to speak. 

"A member of an assembly, in the parliamentary sense, as mentioned above, is a person entitled to full participation in its proceedings, that is, as explained in 3 and 4, the right to attend meetings, to make motions, to speak in debate, and to vote." p. 3, ll. 1-5.

11 minutes ago, Guest GGG said:

The bylaws do declare all meetings are open to home owners, but doesn't say anything regarding speaking rights.

Then, if RONR is your parliamentary authority, you use its rules when your bylaws are silent. Since they are silent regarding speaking rights, the rules in RONR apply - i.e. no nonmember has such a right, but the board may allow it by motion or rule. Or you can amend your bylaws to give members the right to speak.

[Guest Zev]

Perhaps you should read the HOA's bylaws and see what it takes to amend it. Then amend it by getting rid of the board altogether and have quarterly general membership meetings instead of yearly to decide all issues. Bring your concerns directly to the other homeowners and see what they think. If they are affected by the same things you are suffering then you just might get some sympathy and perhaps a better outcome as versus your current set of circumstances. Another alternative is to elect a more responsive board. Which one of these provides the shortest route to happiness only you can tell.

[Guest GGG]

15 hours ago, Joshua Katz said:

Is this regarding the agenda for the annual meeting, or the board meetings?

My understanding is that it's for all meetings. The management company acts as Secretary is practice and has several other HOAs that they allow non-board members to request agenda items. So it sounds our meetings haven't been run to the letter of RONR and they've granted us luxuries beyond the bylaws as well. Is the fact that meetings have been run a certain way a sort of defacto procedure? I'm wondering if they realize that they effectively shut out the home owners all together, that the home owner may have a leg to stand on to cry foul. Thank you for the citations by the way.

14 hours ago, Guest Zev said:

Perhaps you should read the HOA's bylaws and see what it takes to amend it. Then amend it by getting rid of the board altogether and have quarterly general membership meetings instead of yearly to decide all issues. Bring your concerns directly to the other homeowners and see what they think. If they are affected by the same things you are suffering then you just might get some sympathy and perhaps a better outcome as versus your current set of circumstances. Another alternative is to elect a more responsive board. Which one of these provides the shortest route to happiness only you can tell.

Amending the bylaws would be just as difficult as recalling the board. we have a lot of properties that were purchased for rental income and have homeowners that are generally uninterested in what's going on in this community.  We may be stuck with this BOD till November of 2019 - at which point the 3 most problematic BOD Members are up for reelection (2 year term). 

[Joshua Katz]

1 minute ago, Guest GGG said:

My understanding is that it's for all meetings. The management company acts as Secretary is practice and has several other HOAs that they allow non-board members to request agenda items. So it sounds our meetings haven't been run to the letter of RONR and they've granted us luxuries beyond the bylaws as well. Is the fact that meetings have been run a certain way a sort of defacto procedure? I'm wondering if they realize that they effectively shut out the home owners all together, that the home owner may have a leg to stand on to cry foul. Thank you for the citations by the way.

15 hours ago, Guest Zev said:

Well, regarding your general meeting, the board has no business telling you you can't put things on the agenda, and in fact has no role at all at such meetings, as a board (each board member, if a member of the organization, may participate, but with no special powers). So what you're being told about your membership meetings is wrong, and an attack on the rights of members.

For board meetings, what you've been told sound right. As for requesting agenda items, well, first, precatory requests are always allowed (and can always be ignored), but second, you might have relevant laws (outside the scope of this forum) related specifically to HOAs. 

If your meetings have been run contrary to your bylaws (and other governing rules), then no, you haven't established a precedent. Custom falls to the ground on the presentation of a point of order. If a customary practice is consistent with the rules, though, then it stands unless a different decision is made. 

[Guest GGG]

21 minutes ago, Joshua Katz said:

Well, regarding your general meeting, the board has no business telling you you can't put things on the agenda, and in fact has no role at all at such meetings, as a board (each board member, if a member of the organization, may participate, but with no special powers). So what you're being told about your membership meetings is wrong, and an attack on the rights of members.

Is there any reason the members couldn't call a general meeting on more than an annual basis? I'm sure the Board would resist so I'm curious.

[Joshua Katz]

3 minutes ago, Guest GGG said:

Is there any reason the members couldn't call a general meeting on more than an annual basis? I'm sure the Board would resist so I'm curious.

The answer depends on what your bylaws say about membership meetings, and whether they provide for special meetings.

[Guest GGG]

5 hours ago, Joshua Katz said:

The answer depends on what your bylaws say about membership meetings, and whether they provide for special meetings.

The bylaws do allow for it but there doesn't seem to be a point unless we have the numbers to amend the bylaws or recall the problematic quorum. Thank you again for helping with all my questions. I think the easiest thing for me to do is sell the house and never buy into another HOA so help me.