Guest Yoko Posted February 5, 2019 at 08:13 PM Report Share Posted February 5, 2019 at 08:13 PM I would like your help in how to express my complaint. An organization I belong to did not approve in Open Board Meetings certain “items of business” that occurred from 2015-2018; therefore there are no minutes. When I challenged them on this they sent me minutes from 2015-2018, stating the board does hold Open Board Meetings and the minutes prove this. They never referenced any of the “items of business” to the mounds of minutes I would appreciate your help. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted February 5, 2019 at 08:37 PM Report Share Posted February 5, 2019 at 08:37 PM (edited) 23 minutes ago, Guest Yoko said: I would like your help in how to express my complaint. An organization I belong to did not approve in Open Board Meetings certain “items of business” that occurred from 2015-2018; therefore there are no minutes. When I challenged them on this they sent me minutes from 2015-2018, stating the board does hold Open Board Meetings and the minutes prove this. They never referenced any of the “items of business” to the mounds of minutes I would appreciate your help. Thank you I don’t quite understand what you are suggesting happened here and what exactly the nature of your complaint is. Are you suggesting that... The items in question were approved in executive (closed) session. The items in question were approved outside of a meeting. The items in question were never approved by the board at all. The items in question were approved by the board in open session, but for some reason are not included in the minutes. Without knowing exactly what the issue, it is not possible to say whether the board’s conduct is in conflict with RONR and what recourse you or the membership has. Edited February 5, 2019 at 08:37 PM by Josh Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okada Posted February 5, 2019 at 08:55 PM Report Share Posted February 5, 2019 at 08:55 PM (edited) Hi Josh, The items in question were never approved by the board at all. So there are no minutes to reflect that they were approved in the Open Board meetings. They sent me all the Open Board Meeting minutes from 2015-2018 and said they do hold meetings and minutes. Edited February 5, 2019 at 08:58 PM by Okada Needed to add more to my explanation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Katz Posted February 5, 2019 at 08:59 PM Report Share Posted February 5, 2019 at 08:59 PM Okay, so why is it a problem that the board never adopted these items? Is someone claiming that it did? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okada Posted February 5, 2019 at 09:07 PM Report Share Posted February 5, 2019 at 09:07 PM Hi Joshua, The boarded never adopted/approved these items. The board claims they did approve these items of business from 2015-2018. They sent all the minutes from that time frame but never referenced the items that I claim did not get approved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Katz Posted February 5, 2019 at 09:20 PM Report Share Posted February 5, 2019 at 09:20 PM Okay, I think I'm getting the picture now. So next question: do these items have ongoing effect? That is, by their nature, do they impact what your organization is doing at the moment? That would be the case if they are rules that you are following, continuing expenditures, etc. If that is the case, and the board never adopted them, either ignore the rules and force someone to raise a point of order, or raise a point of order (one of these will be appropriate depending on the nature of the motions not adopted). If you are a board member, you can do so at a board meeting (or if they are rules having effect outside of a meeting, simply violate them at will to force the issue); if you are not, you can raise a point of order at a membership meeting. Whichever body is presented with the issue will need to determine whether the items were adopted or not. Their absence from the minutes is evidence, but that's all it is; minutes, after all, can be wrong. In short, the way to deal with motions you say were not adopted but other say were depends on the nature of the motions. It's also not entirely clear it matters. You can't raise a point of order to past actions unless they constitute a continuing breach (so, for instance, a point of order to money spent in the past is not timely), and if you prove your case, the board can simply go ahead and adopt the motions in question now. So before you do anything, make sure (my advice anyway) there is a point in doing so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted February 5, 2019 at 09:46 PM Report Share Posted February 5, 2019 at 09:46 PM 30 minutes ago, Okada said: Hi Joshua, The boarded never adopted/approved these items. The board claims they did approve these items of business from 2015-2018. They sent all the minutes from that time frame but never referenced the items that I claim did not get approved. Well, if they're claiming that these items were approved, they ought to be able to point them out. If not, send the minutes back and say, "Yep; just as I said, they're not in there." But it may also be time to look toward a Plan-B. Worst case, they find some minutes that say these rules or whatever they are were properly adopted. You don't like that. So what's the plan? In general, trying to prove that something you disagree with was improperly adopted is no easy matter, and fails more often than not, especially if it happened some time ago, Instead, imagine things the way you want them, craft a motion that would put them right, and lobby to get that motion adopted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okada Posted February 5, 2019 at 10:08 PM Report Share Posted February 5, 2019 at 10:08 PM Gary, You understood what I was saying! I wondered if I was illiterate and English is my first language. I already filed my complaint with the Justice Department and needed to make sure I was on the right track in my rebuttal. Now I know how to answer back to the Justice Department. Thank you for explaining in simple terms and not technical terms. Much appreciated, Yoko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted February 5, 2019 at 10:17 PM Report Share Posted February 5, 2019 at 10:17 PM You bet. Keep us in the loop. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okada Posted February 5, 2019 at 10:28 PM Report Share Posted February 5, 2019 at 10:28 PM Gary, I just read your comment to my sister, high school teacher, who helps me edit my documents. She thought what you said was EXCELLENT and we both laughed. This helped a lot maybe more than you realize. You have a great sense of humor. Much appreciated, Yoko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted February 5, 2019 at 10:34 PM Report Share Posted February 5, 2019 at 10:34 PM I will treasure my gummed gold star. :-) As a retired H.S. teacher myself, I send my best regards to her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okada Posted February 5, 2019 at 10:44 PM Report Share Posted February 5, 2019 at 10:44 PM Gary, She taught high school science in Clayton, New York and retired. I'm a former elementary school teacher. I actually finished my rebuttal letter which is 4 pages long but something was missing from it but you helped me finish it. If nothing comes of this, I have the sanctification I tried my best. Thanks again, Yoko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted February 5, 2019 at 11:25 PM Report Share Posted February 5, 2019 at 11:25 PM 1 hour ago, Okada said: You understood what I was saying! I wondered if I was illiterate and English is my first language. I already filed my complaint with the Justice Department and needed to make sure I was on the right track in my rebuttal. Now I know how to answer back to the Justice Department. It should be understood that the purpose of this forum is to discuss matters of parliamentary law, as codified in Robert’s Rules of Order. The Justice Department is likely to instead be concerned with violations of federal, state, or local law, subjects which are beyond the scope of this forum. So the members of this forum are likely not the best people to assist you in writing such a complaint. An attorney would be better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted February 7, 2019 at 05:34 AM Report Share Posted February 7, 2019 at 05:34 AM On 2/5/2019 at 6:25 PM, Josh Martin said: It should be understood that the purpose of this forum is to discuss matters of parliamentary law, as codified in Robert’s Rules of Order. The Justice Department is likely to instead be concerned with violations of federal, state, or local law, subjects which are beyond the scope of this forum. So the members of this forum are likely not the best people to assist you in writing such a complaint. An attorney would be better. I strongly agree, if we're talking about that Justice Department. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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