Alexander George Posted April 24, 2019 at 04:39 PM Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 at 04:39 PM Hello. Can one have a motion to the effect of "Choose either option A, option B, or neither"? I find this raises voting procedure issues and am not sure how RR would handle such a thing. Thanks for any help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted April 24, 2019 at 04:49 PM Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 at 04:49 PM Certainly not in this form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander George Posted April 24, 2019 at 04:53 PM Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 at 04:53 PM 2 minutes ago, Daniel H. Honemann said: Certainly not in this form. Thanks - it seemed problematic. How would one allow one's body to express their views about whether they'd prefer Option A, Option B, or neither then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Coronite Posted April 24, 2019 at 04:59 PM Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 at 04:59 PM You may find RONR's treatment of "filling blanks" on pages 162-167 useful. But I'm not 100% sure that's what you're looking for, based on your question alone. Maybe some details would be helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Katz Posted April 24, 2019 at 05:12 PM Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 at 05:12 PM (edited) I would think the easiest way to accomplish this is for someone to move A, and someone to move to amend to B, or to substitute B (depending on how different they are). Edited April 24, 2019 at 05:12 PM by Joshua Katz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander George Posted April 24, 2019 at 07:32 PM Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 at 07:32 PM 2 hours ago, Joshua Katz said: I would think the easiest way to accomplish this is for someone to move A, and someone to move to amend to B, or to substitute B (depending on how different they are). On the agenda to be distributed a week before the meeting, we'd like everyone to see the two options, A and B (so that they can reflect before the meeting on their relative merits). I'm not sure how to construct a single motion that would do that. On Mr. Katz' solution, it seems option A would be on the agenda and someone would move to amend to B on the floor of the meeting. But then members wouldn't have advance notice of the two options. Thanks in advance for any further concrete suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted April 24, 2019 at 07:41 PM Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 at 07:41 PM Nothing wrong with making "A" the main motion listed in the pre-distributed agenda... AND including a statement that once "A" is moved, a member will move "B" as an amendment (or amendment by substitute). Describe fully what "A" and "B" are all about in the meeting notice and everybody will be ready -- oh, boy, will they ever be ready... Make sure your chairman bones up on how to handle amendments by substitution - it is a tad complicated. See page 153. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted April 24, 2019 at 07:53 PM Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 at 07:53 PM Perhaps it would be best if you could explain what it is in your rules which deals with distribution of an "agenda" a week before a meeting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted April 24, 2019 at 11:06 PM Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 at 11:06 PM 6 hours ago, Alexander George said: Thanks - it seemed problematic. How would one allow one's body to express their views about whether they'd prefer Option A, Option B, or neither then? Have someone make a motion to adopt Option A, and then a member can make an amendment for Option B. Other amendments are also in order. In other words, members are not limited to Option A, Option B, or neither. They might decide on an Option C, or a slightly modified form of Option A, or whatever. 6 hours ago, Tom Coronite said: You may find RONR's treatment of "filling blanks" on pages 162-167 useful. But I'm not 100% sure that's what you're looking for, based on your question alone. Maybe some details would be helpful. I’m not sure whether or not filling blanks would be appropriate. It depends on what exactly these options entail. 3 hours ago, Alexander George said: I'm not sure how to construct a single motion that would do that. You can’t do it in one motion. 3 hours ago, Alexander George said: But then members wouldn't have advance notice of the two options. While RONR does not require advance notice of subsidiary motions to amend (and does not require advance notice of most main motions, or the agenda, for that matter), I also do not think anything in RONR prohibits providing such notice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zev Posted April 25, 2019 at 12:48 AM Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 at 12:48 AM How about the OP giving notice of the motion with option A and then get a friend to give notice with the subsidiary motion to strike A and insert B. Would that work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Katz Posted April 25, 2019 at 01:23 AM Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 at 01:23 AM The OP asked about including it on an "agenda." (The quotes are because it's not an agenda until adopted by the body, unless your rules say otherwise.) Why did the conversation suddenly shift to giving notice? I think we should wait to hear from the OP as to whether there are any rules in the organization requiring the distribution of an agenda, and if so what they are, before saying what will and won't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted April 25, 2019 at 01:30 AM Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 at 01:30 AM 1 minute ago, Joshua Katz said: The OP asked about including it on an "agenda." (The quotes are because it's not an agenda until adopted by the body, unless your rules say otherwise.) Why did the conversation suddenly shift to giving notice? I think we should wait to hear from the OP as to whether there are any rules in the organization requiring the distribution of an agenda, and if so what they are, before saying what will and won't work. Well, it seems that the agenda (or at least a tentative agenda) is provided in advance, due to rule or custom, and the OP himself used the words “advance notice of the two options.” I think he is suggesting giving “notice” (in the general sense, not the parliamentary sense) to members of the two options by including them on the (tentative?) agenda which is distributed in advance. I agree that what the assembly’s own rules say on this subject would certainly be helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander George Posted April 25, 2019 at 02:27 AM Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 at 02:27 AM Yes, a central committee prepares an agenda for meetings (this agenda includes all motions that this central committee intends to bring forward) and by rule this agenda must be sent out to members one week in advance to give them time to reflect on the motions that will be brought forward by the central committee. In light of this, this particular proposal: 6 hours ago, jstackpo said: Nothing wrong with making "A" the main motion listed in the pre-distributed agenda... AND including a statement that once "A" is moved, a member will move "B" as an amendment (or amendment by substitute). makes sense to me. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Elsman Posted April 25, 2019 at 04:08 PM Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 at 04:08 PM Such a main motion offering multiple solutions to the same problem a la carte is not in order on account of improper form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zev Posted April 25, 2019 at 06:04 PM Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 at 06:04 PM There is such a thing as a main motion with a blank in it. No one I know has suggested that that is improper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Elsman Posted April 25, 2019 at 06:19 PM Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 at 06:19 PM I get the strong impression that what is desired is more than filling a blank. I believe what he really wants is to have several main motions before the assembly simultaneously. This violates a fundamental principle of parliamentary law. It is Lesson #1: You can only consider one main motion at a time. This rule cannot be suspended. For this reason, a motion that proposes to place before the assembly multiple, independent solutions to a problem is not in order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted April 25, 2019 at 06:45 PM Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 at 06:45 PM 25 minutes ago, reelsman said: motion that proposes to place before the assembly multiple, independent solutions to a problem is not in order. Correct, but there is nothing wrong with an amendment by substitution of an entirely different motion (as long as it is germane, &c.). And nothing wrong with telling folks ahead of time about the main motion and the (possible) amendments that will be offered in turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Elsman Posted April 25, 2019 at 06:51 PM Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 at 06:51 PM Yes, that's the way to go about it! Another possibility is to refer the general topic to a committee to investigate various options and make a recommendation to the assembly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted April 25, 2019 at 07:39 PM Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 at 07:39 PM 1 hour ago, Guest Zev said: There is such a thing as a main motion with a blank in it. No one I know has suggested that that is improper. Oh? What about page 163 lines 5-11? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Coronite Posted April 25, 2019 at 07:55 PM Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 at 07:55 PM 1 hour ago, Guest Zev said: There is such a thing as a main motion with a blank in it. No one I know has suggested that that is improper. 14 minutes ago, Richard Brown said: Oh? What about page 163 lines 5-11? I think you guys are agreeing there IS such a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zev Posted April 25, 2019 at 07:56 PM Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 at 07:56 PM Well, it says this... Quote CREATING A BLANK. A blank to be filled can be created in one of three ways: a) A member can offer a motion or an amendment containing a blank: for example, "Resolved, That Lodge No. 432 build a new headquarters at a cost not to exceed $ _____ "; or an amendment to a main motion can propose "to add 'provided that estimates be received on or before _____ .'" RONR 11th edition page 163. I have had two recent occasions where I did not read the question very carefully and made a mistake. Am I on track for a threepeat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted April 25, 2019 at 08:23 PM Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 at 08:23 PM 25 minutes ago, Tom Coronite said: I think you guys are agreeing there IS such a thing. Ah, you are right, Tom. I misread his post thinking it said there is no such thing as a main motion to create a blank. Can I blame it on tired eyes that are still feeling the effects of the anesthesia from a colonoscopy and the small type on a cell phone? My apologies, Zev. I misread your post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted April 25, 2019 at 08:26 PM Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 at 08:26 PM 28 minutes ago, Guest Zev said: Well, it says this... RONR 11th edition page 163. I have had two recent occasions where I did not read the question very carefully and made a mistake. Am I on track for a threepeat? Nope! You got it right. I misread your post. My apologies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Elsman Posted April 25, 2019 at 08:26 PM Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 at 08:26 PM Hey, a colonoscopy gets you a lot of sympathy from me...😞 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zev Posted April 25, 2019 at 08:42 PM Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 at 08:42 PM 9 minutes ago, Richard Brown said: My apologies, Zev. I misread your post. Apology accepted. I know I've done it several times. 7 minutes ago, reelsman said: Hey, a colonoscopy gets you a lot of sympathy from me...😞 Yeah. I hope that at a minimum you got some flowers, candy, and a bottle of wine. Comedian Richard Schimmel had a very funny routine about this subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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