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jstackpo

RONR Page 441: Voting ambiguity - ?

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Page 441, lines 18ff, last line in paragraph states "All of them also remain..."

What grouping of candidates does "All of them also remain..." refer back to?  The full collection of candidates who did get majority votes, or the smaller set who all got the same (majority) vote and are tied for the last available slot. Or some other combination?  The word "also" clouds things (for me, anyway).

Example:  Five board positions to be filled; multiple candidates; competent tellers; majority needed to elect: 7

Talley:  Alice: 12; Bob: 10; Charles: 9; David and Eve both get 8; Fred: 7; All other candidates get less than 7.

Who participates in the repeated balloting?   (Disregard the "suspend the rules" business in the footnote.)

A, B, C, D, E, F  ?

D, E, F ?

D, E ?

D, E, F, All the others ?

&c.

 

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The cited rule (numbered by sentences) is: "(1) In an election of members of a board or committee in which votes are cast in one section of the ballot for multiple positions on the board or committee, every ballot with a vote for one or more candidates is counted as one vote cast, and a candidate must receive a majority of the total of such votes to be elected. (2) In such a case, if more than the prescribed number receive a majority vote, the places are filled by the proper number receiving the largest number of votes. (3) If less than the proper number receive a majority vote, those who do have a majority are elected, and all others remain as candidates for the necessary repeated balloting. (4) Similarly, if some individuals receive a majority but are tied for the lowest position that would elect, all of them also remain as candidates on the next ballot."

11 minutes ago, jstackpo said:

Example:  Five board positions to be filled; multiple candidates; competent tellers; majority needed to elect: 7

Talley:  Alice: 12; Bob: 10; Charles: 9; David and Eve both get 8; Fred: 7; All other candidates get less than 7.

In this example, there is no repeated balloting necessary, because five candidates are elected according to the rule in sentence 2. The last two sentences therefore do not enter in.

In sentence 3, "tied for the lowest position that would elect" refers to the lowest position that has a majority AND has the largest number of votes -- in this example, that would mean those who are tied for fifth (or greater) place, not all those who receive a majority. But here, D & E are not tied for fifth place; they are tied for fourth and fifth places, so they each take one slot (doesn't matter which, since they are identical offices), and the election is over.

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25 minutes ago, jstackpo said:

What grouping of candidates does "All of them also remain..." refer back to?  The full collection of candidates who did get majority votes, or the smaller set who all got the same (majority) vote and are tied for the last available slot. Or some other combination?  The word "also" clouds things (for me, anyway).

I agree that the rule is confusing, but the bottom line is that if repeated balloting is necessary -- whether because not enough received a majority or because some were tied in the rankings -- all of the candidates who have not been elected remain on the ballot: all of the ones who received a majority but who tied for the last available place(s), and also all of those who did not receive a majority at all (and, perhaps unstated, also all of the ones who received a majority but came in below last place).

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3 minutes ago, Shmuel Gerber said:

In this example, there is no repeated balloting necessary, because five candidates are elected according to the rule in sentence 2. The last two sentences therefore do not enter in.

Damn, I didn't set up the example correctly!   Give Fred 9 votes, then D&E are tied for the 5th place.

So does "All of them" refer to

1)   D & E

or

2)   D, E, All the others (with less than 7)

I think 2) is correct but the "All of them also..." phrasing remains a tad ambiguous as it could refer to all of the tied candidates (D&E) only.

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4 minutes ago, jstackpo said:

Damn, I didn't set up the example correctly!   Give Fred 9 votes, then D&E are tied for the 5th place.

So does "All of them" refer to

1)   D & E

or

2)   D, E, All the others (with less than 7)

I think 2) is correct but the "All of them also..." phrasing remains a tad ambiguous as it could refer to all of the tied candidates (D&E) only.

I would say that "all of them" refers to D & E, and "also" refers to all the others. It doesn't really matter, because:

6 minutes ago, Shmuel Gerber said:

the bottom line is that if repeated balloting is necessary -- whether because not enough received a majority or because some were tied in the rankings -- all of the candidates who have not been elected remain on the ballot

 

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