Primary & Secondary Motions (Amendments)

[Tomm]

I just attended, as a guest, our Board Members meeting and here's what happened.

A Main Motion was made.

An amendment to that Main Motion was then made (primary amendment?) but not voted on.

An amendment to the primary amendment was then made (secondary amendment?) 

A vote was taken to accept the secondary amendment and passed. 

Then they voted again to vote on the secondary amendment! (that's what has me baffled)

Then they voted again to vote on the amended Main Motion! 

Am I mistaken to believe that when the secondary motion was passed, it now became the new Main Motion and the only vote required after the secondary amendment passed, was to vote on the new Main motion?  

 

[Tomm]

To clarify a little: the primary amendment was, in fact, seconded but never voted on. During debate a secondary amendment was made, seconded, voted on and approved.

[Shmuel Gerber]

40 minutes ago, Tomm said:

Then they voted again to vote on the secondary amendment! (that's what has me baffled)

They voted to vote, or they simply voted?

It seems to me that everything was probably done correctly. Whenever an amendment is adopted, it simply changes the wording of the motion that was being amended. That motion still has to be voted on (in its amended form).

So if there is a main motion, a primary amendment, and a secondary amendment, then three votes should be taken. And, to some extent, each of those votes may involve the same words.

 

[Tomm]

If the primary amendment was amended by the secondary amendment, voted on and approved, then doesn't the primary amendment disappear?

The secondary amendment that was just voted on and approved, becomes the new wording of the Main motion and is then voted on again as the Main motion?

 

[Weldon Merritt]

14 minutes ago, Tomm said:

If the primary amendment was amended by the secondary amendment, voted on and approved, then doesn't the primary amendment disappear?

No, the primary amendment, as amended by the secondary amendment, is then pending. Even if the secondary amendment is a complete substitute for the primary amendment, the primary amendment (as amended) remains pending

 

17 minutes ago, Tomm said:

The secondary amendment that was just voted on and approved, becomes the new wording of the Main motion and is then voted on again as the Main motion?

 

No, it simply amends the primary amendment, which then must be voted on. Then after that, the main motion (as amended if applicable) is voted on. The sequence (omitting some of teh detail) is:

• Main motion moved
• Primary amendmenmt moved
• Secondary amendment moved
• Secondary amendment voted on
• Primary amendment (as amended, if the secondary amendment was adopted) voted on
• Main motion (as amended, if the primary amendment was adopted) voted on

[Rob Elsman]

4 hours ago, Tomm said:

Then they voted again to vote on the secondary amendment! (that's what has me baffled)

I am guessing that this vote was to adopt the primary amendment, as amended.

[Weldon Merritt]

1 hour ago, Rob Elsman said:

I am guessing that this vote was to adopt the primary amendment, as amended.

I think you're probably right. And if the secondary amendment was a substitute for the primary, it may indeed have seemed like they were voting on the same amendment again.

[Tomm]

So if I've got this right....

Approve secondary amendment....vote one

Approve changing  the wording of the primary amendment to that of the secondary amendment...vote two

Approve changing the wording of the main motion to that of the new primary amendment...vote three

vote three ended of voting

Question: would it be unusual for the primary amendment to fail considering it was approved when it was the secondary motion?

[Bruce Lages]

No, that's not right. Vote one is to approve the secondary amendment. With that vote being passed, the primary amendment is altered to include the wording of the secondary amendment, so there's no second vote needed to do that. Vote two will be to approve the primary amendment (as now altered by the secondary amendment). With vote two being passed, the main motion will be altered to include the wording of the primary amendment - again, no additional vote needed to do that. Vote three is whether to approve the main motion as altered by the wording of the primary amendment. It's important to remember that after all primary and secondary amendments have been dealt with, you still haven't decided whether to approve the main motion - you've just agreed on what the wording of that main motion will be. It still needs to be approved, or not, with its finally-agreed upon language.

[Weldon Merritt]

1 hour ago, Tomm said:

Question: would it be unusual for the primary amendment to fail considering it was approved when it was the secondary motion?

I don't know how "unusual" it would be, but it's certainly a possibility. There may be some members who would prefer that if the main motion is to be amended at all, the wording be that of the secondary amendment, so they would vote for the secondary amendment. Yet they still would prefer that the main motion not be amended at all, so they would vote against the primary motion as amended. And remember that each of the motions is debatable while it is pending, so it also is possible that some members will change their minds as a result of the debate.

[Shmuel Gerber]

An example would probably be helpful.

@Tomm, have you tried looking at the example in RONR (11th ed.), p. 144, line 15 to p. 145, line 26?

Here's another example. Suppose the following main motion is moved and seconded (to make things scientific-like, we'll call this main motion M₀) :

M₀: That we purchase a new stun gun for the doorkeeper.

While this motion is pending, the following primary amendment is moved and seconded:

P₀: To amend by adding, ‘at a cost not to exceed $200’

And while this primary amendment is pending, the following secondary amendment is moved and seconded:

S: To amend the amendment by striking out ‘$200’ and inserting ‘$500’

To dispose of these motions, three votes will be taken (after any further debate at each stage). First, a vote will be taken on the secondary amendment S.

If S is adopted, the effect will be to change the wording of the primary amendment. At this point, no words have yet been added to the main motion. The primary amendment will remain pending in its amended form, i.e.:

P₁: To amend by adding, ‘at a cost not to exceed $500’

The second vote will be on this P₁, the primary amendment as amended. The vote on S did not decide the question on the primary amendment, but caused it to become P₁ (the amended wording) instead of P₀ (the original wording).

If P₁ is adopted, the effect will be to change the wording of the main motion, but once again the main motion has not been adopted. Rather, it remains pending in its amended form, i.e.:

M₁: That we purchase a new stun gun for the doorkeeper at a cost not to exceed $500.

At this point, the assembly has still not decided whether to purchase a stun gun. The only decisions that have been made are, first, that if the amount of the purchase is to be limited, the limit will be $500. And, second, that indeed the amount of the purchase will be limited to $500 — if any purchase of a stun gun for the doorkeeper will be made. The third vote — on M₁, the main motion as amended — will make that decision of whether or not to make the purchase.

Edited February 28, 2020 at 08:17 PM by Shmuel Gerber
fixed typo in the last paragraph