Procedural Error Correction

[Guest French Em]

At a recent meeting, an amendment was made to a main motion. The Chair's ruling to allow the amendment was challenged, as a member felt it was not a true amendment and outside the scope of the original motion. The body then did a vote (by roll call since half were participating electronically) on "Shall the Chair be sustained?". There were 9 in favour and 9 opposed with the Chair voting, so the challenge was overturned and the amendment permitted (though tabled to future meeting because we ran out of time). After the meeting, the clerk discovered that our procedures bylaw states the Chair may not vote. Advice given in the meeting was contrary to that. How do we go back and fix the error which would have resulted in the challenge being sustained and the amendment not being permitted?

[George Mervosh]

Before you worry about the one vote you're questioning, since you mentioned half of the members participated and voted electronically, do your bylaws expressly authorize absentee voting?

[Richard Brown]

Besides the question by Mr. Mervosh, please tell us the EXACT wording in your bylaws about the chair not voting.

[Guest French Em]

Our bylaw states: If an appeal be taken from the decision of the Chair, the question "Shall the Chair be sustained?" shall be put forthwith and decided without debate by a simple majority of the Members present (exclusive of the Chair) and in the event of the votes being equal, the question shall pass in the affirmative. The names of the Members of the Board voting for or against the question shall be recorded in the minutes.

And yes, electronic participation is permitted.

Thanks!

[Guest French Em]

Our bylaw states: If an appeal be taken from the decision of the Chair, the question "Shall the Chair be sustained?" shall be put forthwith and decided without debate by a simple majority of the Members present (exclusive of the Chair) and in the event of the votes being equal, the question shall pass in the affirmative. The names of the Members of the Board voting for or against the question shall be recorded in the minutes.

And yes, electronic participation is permitted and counts as though the person were in the room so I believe it's irrelevant information - apologies.

The issue is that advice given resulted in the challenge being overruled, when in fact the proper result would have it be sustained. Chair wants to know how to proceed procedurally, given that staff gave the wrong advice that materially impacted the outcome. 

[Atul Kapur]

It's too late to correct the error. This rule - even though it is in the bylaws - is in the nature of a rule of order, so a Point of Order on this error would need to have been made in a timely manner.

[Richard Brown]

6 hours ago, Guest French Em said:

The issue is that advice given resulted in the challenge being overruled, when in fact the proper result would have it be sustained

I noticed you have said twice that the challenge was overturned. Actually, the question is stated “Shall the decision of the chair be sustained”?  It is the decision of the chair that is sustained or overturned, not the challenge. It is confusing when you talk about the challenge being overturned. It is also technically incorrect according to RONR.  You will never hear a parliamentarian say the challenge was sustained  or overturned. We always say that the ruling (or decision) of the chair was either sustained or overturned.  Additionally, per both RONR and your bylaws,  it is an appeal from the ruling of the chair, not a challenge to the ruling of the chair.

[Shmuel Gerber]

On 5/28/2020 at 11:49 PM, Richard Brown said:

You will never hear a parliamentarian say the challenge was sustained  or overturned. We always say that the ruling (or decision) of the chair was either sustained or overturned.

Well, RONR does say that the body of the minutes should show "all points of order and appeals, whether sustained or lost, together with the reasons given by the chair for his or her ruling." (RONR 11th ed., p. 470, No. 10)

[Tom Coronite]

Can the appeal be renewed when the amendment is pending at a future meeting?

 

Disregard. I found my answer on p 257 ll 29ff  🙂

Edited June 4, 2020 at 03:19 PM by Tom Coronite