Jump to content
The Official RONR Q & A Forums

Extending a recess--special case?


Nathan Zook

Recommended Posts

I have stumbled on an oddity, which should at least amuse your eminences.

Suppose at the beginning of a meeting, a body adopts an agenda, which includes a recess for a set period of time.  When the time for the recess arrives, a member obtains the floor, and moves to extend the recess.

What is the proper vote required in order for the motion to pass?  I believe that RONR clearly specifies that this is a motion to Amend Something Previously Adopted, and as such, requires a two-thirds vote to pass.

On the other hand, if a majority of the body does not return from the recess on time, then this will generally break quorum.  Moreover, the purpose of requiring a two-thirds vote is to protect the rights of a large minority.  The right generally considered is the right to participate fully in the proceedings of the body, and extending a recess in no way infringes upon this right.

So I'm questioning RONR for this edge case.  It feels like a motion to extend a previously agreed recess should only require a majority vote.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Nathan Zook said:

So I'm questioning RONR for this edge case.  It feels like a motion to extend a previously agreed recess should only require a majority vote.

If a member can obtain the floor shortly before the scheduled time of recess, I think he could move to immediately take a recess that is for a period longer than the originally scheduled recess. Even if moved when no business is pending, I don't think this would be considered a motion that conflicts with a previously adopted main motion, and it could be adopted by majority vote.

But that's just my opinion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/2/2020 at 2:29 PM, Nathan Zook said:

On the other hand, if a majority of the body does not return from the recess on time, then this will generally break quorum. 

That assumes that quorum is a majority of those attending the meeting.

On 6/2/2020 at 3:52 PM, Shmuel Gerber said:

Even if moved when no business is pending, I don't think this would be considered a motion that conflicts with a previously adopted main motion, and it could be adopted by majority vote.

What if the meeting has adopted the agenda (with times included)?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/2/2020 at 2:29 PM, Nathan Zook said:

I have stumbled on an oddity, which should at least amuse your eminences.

Suppose at the beginning of a meeting, a body adopts an agenda, which includes a recess for a set period of time.  When the time for the recess arrives, a member obtains the floor, and moves to extend the recess.

What is the proper vote required in order for the motion to pass?  I believe that RONR clearly specifies that this is a motion to Amend Something Previously Adopted, and as such, requires a two-thirds vote to pass.

On the other hand, if a majority of the body does not return from the recess on time, then this will generally break quorum.  Moreover, the purpose of requiring a two-thirds vote is to protect the rights of a large minority.  The right generally considered is the right to participate fully in the proceedings of the body, and extending a recess in no way infringes upon this right.

So I'm questioning RONR for this edge case.  It feels like a motion to extend a previously agreed recess should only require a majority vote.

 

Mr. Zook, I'd like to know exactly what this agenda provides, at least that portion of it which includes the items immediately preceding and following this scheduled "recess for a set period of time."

In any event, when the time for a scheduled recess arrives (you posit that it does or has), the chair should declare the assembly in recess, or if he doesn't, a member may demand that he do so by calling for the orders of the day. Instead, you say that a member obtains the floor and moves "to extend the recess." In my opinion, this motion is not in order, and the chair should so rule.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Atul Kapur said:

What if the meeting has adopted the agenda (with times included)?

I think that the majority in an assembly always has the privilege of taking an immediate recess for however long it wants to, but maybe I haven't properly thought this through. 

Edited by Shmuel Gerber
Typo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/4/2020 at 3:46 AM, Daniel H. Honemann said:

Mr. Zook, I'd like to know exactly what this agenda provides, at least that portion of it which includes the items immediately preceding and following this scheduled "recess for a set period of time."

In any event, when the time for a scheduled recess arrives (you posit that it does or has), the chair should declare the assembly in recess, or if he doesn't, a member may demand that he do so by calling for the orders of the day. Instead, you say that a member obtains the floor and moves "to extend the recess." In my opinion, this motion is not in order, and the chair should so rule.

This is a purely hypothetical scenario, so the provisions in the agenda are whatever is appropriate to bring out the salient issues.

In my mind, the actual motion would be to amend the agenda.  The obtaining of the floor might be done either before the chair announces the recess (either if the time has arrived or if the items of business preceding the recess have been accomplished) or immediately when the chair is announcing the recess.

Mr. Gerber has suggested that, if the recess has not already been announced, that a main motion for a recess would be in order.  I had not considered that option.  Suppose the agenda called for a 30 minute recess.  A member could move to have a 15 minute recess immediately before the 30 minute recess, resulting in a total of 45 minutes of recess (presumably with the chair announcing the start of the 30 minute recess at the end of the 15 minute recess.)  This appears to me to be in no way in conflict with the agenda, and therefore passable by a majority vote.

On the other hand, if the chair has already announced the recess, it would appear to be too late to bring a main motion.  Amending the agenda is the only avenue I see.  ie:

Chairman:  "The agenda now calls for a recess.  The body shall be in recess for 30 minutes"

(immediately) Member: "Mr. Chairman!"

Chairman: "For what purpose does the member rise?"

Member: "To amend the agenda to extend the recess."

...

 

Does it matter if the gavel has been tapped? ???

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With a degree of fear in my heart, I humbly disagree with Mr. Gerber (who, it is my understanding, will be listed as one of the authors of the upcoming 12th edition. Congratulations!) that a motion to Recess for a longer period of time than the period of time scheduled in an adopted agenda would not be a motion to Amend Something Previously Adopted or, otherwise,  not in order because it would conflict with a main motion previously adopted. Perhaps, I'm being a stick-in-the-mud, but, however much one tries to put striped pajamas on a horse, a zebra is not the result.

My problem with this whole discussion (will someone get my soapbox?) is my sneaking suspicion that this "body", and all assemblies that meet at least as often as quarterly, should not use an agenda at all; instead, they should follow either the standard order of business or a special order of business adopted as a special rule of order. On this forum, we continually encounter frequently-meeting assemblies that persist in the bad practice of adopting an agenda, especially misused as a way to suppress members who want to introduce new business that is not included. How can I make this misuse go away? Nothing in RONR prohibits the transaction of other business after the agenda items have been disposed, even in assemblies that properly should adopt an agenda. The proper way to suppress the introduction of further business is adoption of a motion to Adjourn.

In those assemblies that are bound by the general rule to follow the standard order of business or another established order of business, a motion to adopt an agenda is not in order, unless the rules that interfere have first been suspended for this purpose by a two-thirds vote. That may come as a shocker to many groups that persistently misuse the motion and to many poorly-trained presiding officers who habitually admit the motion when the rules have not been suspended for the purpose.

How more can I encourage frequently-meeting assemblies to conform? The standard order of business is quite useful for almost all ordinary societies. It is easy to use. It is quite flexible. Why on earth, except for poor training and habit, would societies create continual discord and disunity over agendas that shouldn't even exist? Please, please, read what RONR has to say on the subject, and help your group get rid of these troublesome agendas.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To be fair, I too have seen the agenda used more in a suppressive fashion than anything else. (At state conventions of a political party.)  But the idea of a scheduled break in the proceedings is extremely attractive when the meeting often runs 12 hours or more.

I suppose a prior motion to recess at a certain time and for a certain period of time would fit the goal of my question as well as an entire agenda.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Nathan Zook said:

This is a purely hypothetical scenario, so the provisions in the agenda are whatever is appropriate to bring out the salient issues.

In my mind, the actual motion would be to amend the agenda.  The obtaining of the floor might be done either before the chair announces the recess (either if the time has arrived or if the items of business preceding the recess have been accomplished) or immediately when the chair is announcing the recess.

Mr. Gerber has suggested that, if the recess has not already been announced, that a main motion for a recess would be in order.  I had not considered that option.  Suppose the agenda called for a 30 minute recess.  A member could move to have a 15 minute recess immediately before the 30 minute recess, resulting in a total of 45 minutes of recess (presumably with the chair announcing the start of the 30 minute recess at the end of the 15 minute recess.)  This appears to me to be in no way in conflict with the agenda, and therefore passable by a majority vote.

I am inclined to agree with those who say that a motion to "extend the recess" is not in order. If an assembly has scheduled a recess for 11:30-12:00, then at 11:30, the chair's duty is to announce the scheduled recess. I suppose the member could move to set aside the orders of the day. If adopted by a 2/3 vote, the assembly could then proceed to amend the agenda to lengthen the recess.

It generally seems that it would be simpler, however, to just go on recess as scheduled, and then determine whether to move for another recess when the assembly reconvenes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In conventions, it is not uncommon for the program or agenda to include a day and hour at which to adjourn. This should be considered a special order assigned to a certain hour. This is principally because the society has contracted for the use of the convention hall for a fixed period of time, at which it is to be vacated.

In these cases, when the assigned hour has arrived, the chair should interrupt the pending business to announce that the hour to adjourn has arrived. After handling any of the few motions that are in order at this point, he may make any necessary announcements and proceed to the closing ceremonies or declare the convention adjourned.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Rob Elsman said:

In conventions, it is not uncommon for the program or agenda to include a day and hour at which to adjourn. This should be considered a special order assigned to a certain hour. This is principally because the society has contracted for the use of the convention hall for a fixed period of time, at which it is to be vacated.

In these cases, when the assigned hour has arrived, the chair should interrupt the pending business to announce that the hour to adjourn has arrived. After handling any of the few motions that are in order at this point, he may make any necessary announcements and proceed to the closing ceremonies or declare the convention adjourned.

Yep, and I have seen this used over and over again to abuse the body.  By far the best one so far, was when we had not completed the election of delegates and alternates when the time to adjourn had arrived.  Despite the strong prior assertions by the chair that the time could not be moved, actual adjournment was delayed by almost an hour and a half.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...