To Be or Not to Be an Agenda

[Atul Kapur]

5 hours ago, Shmuel Gerber said:

How many classes of business would have to be removed from the established order of business before the assembly runs afoul of this rule?

All of them.

5 hours ago, Shmuel Gerber said:

But would you agree that, even by a unanimous vote, it could not adopt a motion "to dispense with the regular order of business and consider only the report of the special committee on the annual fundraiser"? And then what about an agenda like the one above, but omitting item #2?

I would (hesitantly) say that it could adopt such a motion because that would be the same as making the Report of the Special Committee the special order for the meeting and I do not see how it's effectively different. And making an item the special order can dispense with the order of business. "A matter can be made the special order for a meeting if it is desired to reserve an entire meeting . . . for the consideration of a single subject." p. 187, ll. 33-35

I await hearing why the assembly can achieve the same goal one way but not the other.

[Shmuel Gerber]

14 minutes ago, Atul Kapur said:

I would (hesitantly) say that it could adopt such a motion because that would be the same as making the Report of the Special Committee the special order for the meeting and I do not see how it's effectively different. And making an item the special order can dispense with the order of business. "A matter can be made the special order for a meeting if it is desired to reserve an entire meeting . . . for the consideration of a single subject." p. 187, ll. 33-35

I'm not sure exactly what is meant by "to reserve an entire meeting, or as much of it as necessary, for the consideration of a single subject" (notice the words you conveniently omitted by ellipsis), but the book implies that the remainder of the order of business is taken up after the special order has been disposed of:

“When it is desired to devote an entire meeting to a subject, or as much of the meeting as may be necessary, the matter can be made the special order for the meeting (as distinguished from a special order for the meeting; see pp. 356–57). The special order for the meeting will then be taken up as soon as the minutes have been approved, and the remainder of the order of business will not be taken up until this special order has been disposed of." (11th ed., p. 371, ll. 1–9)

14 minutes ago, Atul Kapur said:

I await hearing why the assembly can achieve the same goal one way but not the other.

I don't think it can.

[Atul Kapur]

4 hours ago, Shmuel Gerber said:

I'm not sure exactly what is meant by "to reserve an entire meeting, or as much of it as necessary, for the consideration of a single subject" (notice the words you conveniently omitted by ellipsis)

The ellipsis was used to remove a nonrestrictive phrase and clarify that one can reserve, or devote, an entire meeting to a subject.

[Shmuel Gerber]

9 minutes ago, Atul Kapur said:

The ellipsis was used to remove a nonrestrictive phrase and clarify that one can reserve, or devote, an entire meeting to a subject.

How does one reserve an entire meeting for the special order, as opposed to reserving only as much of the meeting as necessary?

[Weldon Merritt]

8 hours ago, Shmuel Gerber said:

How does one reserve an entire meeting for the special order, as opposed to reserving only as much of the meeting as necessary?

I don't know, but that's what the language says. If it weren't possible, it seems to me that the passage should read something more like, "reserve as much of the meeting as necessary," rather than "the entire meeting, or as much of it as necessary." (Emphasis added.) I suppose one could say that in some instances, the entire meeting is "as much of it as necessary." But it seems to me that the use of the conjunction must mean something.

[Dan Honemann]

6 hours ago, Shmuel Gerber said:

How does one reserve an entire meeting for the special order, as opposed to reserving only as much of the meeting as necessary?

By adopting, at the outset of the meeting at which the special order is to be taken up, an agenda calling for adjournment immediately following the special order.  🙂

 

[Shmuel Gerber]

53 minutes ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

By adopting, at the outset of the meeting at which the special order is to be taken up, an agenda calling for adjournment immediately following the special order.  🙂

 

🙂

[Atul Kapur]

10 hours ago, Shmuel Gerber said:

How does one reserve an entire meeting for the special order, as opposed to reserving only as much of the meeting as necessary?

To steal a common response on this forum: "They're your words -- you tell us."  😉

 

[Shmuel Gerber]

1 hour ago, Weldon Merritt said:

I don't know, but that's what the language says. If it weren't possible, it seems to me that the passage should read something more like, "reserve as much of the meeting as necessary," rather than "the entire meeting, or as much of it as necessary." (Emphasis added.) I suppose one could say that in some instances, the entire meeting is "as much of it as necessary." But it seems to me that the use of the conjunction must mean something.

 

1 minute ago, Atul Kapur said:

To steal a common response on this forum: "They're your words -- you tell us."  😉

I agree it could be worded in a less ambiguous way, but I say it does mean the same thing as "as much of the meeting as necessary, including possibly all of it". I think that using the entire meeting will apply primarily in the case of an adjourned meeting devoted to the subject, or to one meeting within a larger session at a convention, but it will not apply in the case of a meeting that constitutes a complete regular session with an established order of business.

“To postpone a subject—such as a revision of the bylaws—to an adjourned meeting at which the entire time can be devoted to it if necessary, a motion to Fix the Time to Which to Adjourn should first be made and adopted, and then the motion to Postpone should be made in this form: "I move that the question be postponed and made the special order for the adjourned meeting set for next Tuesday evening." (Two-thirds vote required for adoption.)” [RONR (12th ed.), p. 189, l. 32 to p. 190, l. 4]

“A main motion to make a particular subject a special order can be introduced whenever business of its class or new business is in order and nothing is pending. … In the case of a committee report, a resolution such as this may be adopted: "Resolved, That the report of the committee on the revision of the bylaws be made the special order for Wednesday morning and thereafter until it has been disposed of.” [ibid., p. 366, ll. 6–18]

“Sometimes a subject is made the special order for a meeting, as for Tuesday morning in a convention, in which case it is announced by the chair as the pending business immediately after the disposal of the minutes. This particular form is used when it is desired to devote an entire meeting, or so much of it as is necessary, to considering a special subject, as the revision of the by-laws.” [ROR, p. 77]

 

[Dan Honemann]

26 minutes ago, Shmuel Gerber said:

 

I agree it could be worded in a less ambiguous way, but I say it does mean the same thing as "as much of the meeting as necessary, including possibly all of it". I think that using the entire meeting will apply primarily in the case of an adjourned meeting devoted to the subject, or to one meeting within a larger session at a convention, but it will not apply in the case of a meeting that constitutes a complete regular session with an established order of business.

“To postpone a subject—such as a revision of the bylaws—to an adjourned meeting at which the entire time can be devoted to it if necessary, a motion to Fix the Time to Which to Adjourn should first be made and adopted, and then the motion to Postpone should be made in this form: "I move that the question be postponed and made the special order for the adjourned meeting set for next Tuesday evening." (Two-thirds vote required for adoption.)” [RONR (12th ed.), p. 189, l. 32 to p. 190, l. 4]

“A main motion to make a particular subject a special order can be introduced whenever business of its class or new business is in order and nothing is pending. … In the case of a committee report, a resolution such as this may be adopted: "Resolved, That the report of the committee on the revision of the bylaws be made the special order for Wednesday morning and thereafter until it has been disposed of.” [ibid., p. 366, ll. 6–18]

“Sometimes a subject is made the special order for a meeting, as for Tuesday morning in a convention, in which case it is announced by the chair as the pending business immediately after the disposal of the minutes. This particular form is used when it is desired to devote an entire meeting, or so much of it as is necessary, to considering a special subject, as the revision of the by-laws.” [ROR, p. 77]

 

I'm inclined to agree with this so far as it relates to making an item of business the special order for a meeting is concerned, but I think it has nothing to do with the fact that an assembly may, at the outset of the meeting at which the special order is to be taken up, adopt an agenda calling for adjournment immediately following its disposition of the special order.