Guest C. Renee Posted October 5, 2020 at 12:07 AM Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 at 12:07 AM I'm a part of an organization that is a collection of sororities and fraternities (18 financial chapters in total). Each sorority or fraternity is allowed to send at least 2 representatives to the council meeting per the bylaws. It has been a tradition in the past (10 years since I've been a member) that only one person from each of the financial chapters could vote. However, this is not in the bylaws. There was a new election of officers this past December. The president and several individuals running for office were in disagreement on how many people could vote from each sorority and fraternity chapter. Meaning, the person that ran against the president along with other members of the council attempted to have 5 votes cast from 1 sorority which would change the vote from 18 to 24 in favor of the person running against the president. It was discussed that since the body could not come to an agreement on how the vote should occur, the voting process must mirror the process that occurred during the previous administration's election. I was the president at that time and it was a known custom to only allow one vote per financial chapter. My decision was accepted and only 18 votes were cast. Now the new president and members of the executive board are trying to allow more than 1 vote from different financial chapters because it would be in their favor for current agenda topics. My question is shouldn't the custom of 1 vote per financial chapter be the process until the bylaws are updated? How do I address this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atul Kapur Posted October 5, 2020 at 12:37 AM Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 at 12:37 AM I would be very surprised if the bylaws/governing documents of this organization ("Hellenic Council"?) are truly silent about how many votes each member has. The custom falls to the ground if challenged and the governing documents need to be followed. If the bylaws are truly silent, then RONR says that each member has one vote. Review your bylaws carefully to see who, exactly, are members of the Council. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Katz Posted October 5, 2020 at 12:40 AM Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 at 12:40 AM 29 minutes ago, Guest C. Renee said: It was discussed that since the body could not come to an agreement on how the vote should occur, the voting process must mirror the process that occurred during the previous administration's election. This seems to me to be based on a misapprehension as to how bodies make decisions. In a democratic society of the type envisioned in RONR, there is no need to come to an agreement. Rather, after hearing both sides, the majority prevails. This being a question of rules, the president (you) should make a ruling on a point of order, which can then be appealed. I don't have the bylaws, or course, and my interpretation doesn't matter anyway, but nothing in what you've described suggests to me that each chapter gets one vote. It sounds as if such a practice would deny members some of their rights, and a tradition in violation of your rules falls to the ground when challenged. However, a further question is whether the body in question even had the right to decide this question. What body was meeting? Was it the body that elects the officers? 32 minutes ago, Guest C. Renee said: My question is shouldn't the custom of 1 vote per financial chapter be the process until the bylaws are updated? No, whatever is the right answer should be followed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C. Renee Posted October 5, 2020 at 02:13 PM Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 at 02:13 PM Thank you Atul and Joshua for your insight. As mentioned Atul, this is a Hellenic Council and the bylaws have been so casual that it did leave room for different interpretations. The 1 vote per chapter is not in the bylaws so this prompted a revision that is in draft. And as you know, the size of each chapter varies in membership size so those running for office encouraged their members to attend and vote on their behalf while the other chapters only had the 1 representative to vote. We do invite members of each organization to attend as guests so they can consider if they would like to be involved at a later time. Yes Joshua, it was the body that elected the officers. The relationship between the then president and the person running against was so intense. Per the bylaws, each chapter can have up to 2 representatives but it does not state how many can vote. Our normal headcount is 18 representatives (1 from each chapter). Last week, there were 25 people in attendance with several from the same chapter and they all voted. It is rumored that the president called people that have never attended a council meeting and asked them to vote 'yes' for an event budget. It was only through pushback that the annual budget was not correct that this did not occur. Again, thank you both for responding. I've ordered my new edition of RONR and will review. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Katz Posted October 5, 2020 at 02:16 PM Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 at 02:16 PM 1 minute ago, Guest C. Renee said: Per the bylaws, each chapter can have up to 2 representatives but it does not state how many can vote. If the bylaws grant a certain number of representatives, presumably establishing the membership of this body, I don't see why the answer isn't obviously that they can vote. If the bylaws of an organization, for instance, established a 7 member board, and said how they are elected, we wouldn't expect them also to say "and the members can vote." That's just what membership is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted October 5, 2020 at 02:38 PM Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 at 02:38 PM 23 minutes ago, Guest C. Renee said: Per the bylaws, each chapter can have up to 2 representatives but it does not state how many can vote. The ordinary rule is that all members of an assembly can vote. So it seems to me that all of the representatives can vote unless the bylaws provide otherwise, notwithstanding the society's erroneous custom to the contrary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted October 5, 2020 at 02:58 PM Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 at 02:58 PM 18 minutes ago, Josh Martin said: The ordinary rule is that all members of an assembly can vote. So it seems to me that all of the representatives can vote unless the bylaws provide otherwise, notwithstanding the society's erroneous custom to the contrary. I would think the statement which I bolded should be qualified to say that up to two representatives per chapter can vote. In a previous post, the original poster said that some chapters sent “several“ representatives. Based on what we have been told by the bylaws, I would think that only two representatives per chapter would be able to vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atul Kapur Posted October 5, 2020 at 04:05 PM Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 at 04:05 PM Guest C. Renee, I will make it unanimous. If your bylaws actually say that there are two representatives per chapter, then that is the membership of the Council. Unless your bylaws explicitly say otherwise, each member of the Council (the 2 representatives per chapter) has the right to vote. We are, of course, basing our answer on your description of the bylaws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted October 5, 2020 at 04:21 PM Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 at 04:21 PM 1 hour ago, Richard Brown said: I would think the statement which I bolded should be qualified to say that up to two representatives per chapter can vote. In a previous post, the original poster said that some chapters sent “several“ representatives. Based on what we have been told by the bylaws, I would think that only two representatives per chapter would be able to vote. Yes, I agree with this. My statement above assumed that chapters are not sending more representatives than they are entitled to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. J. Posted October 5, 2020 at 06:21 PM Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 at 06:21 PM 3 hours ago, Richard Brown said: I would think the statement which I bolded should be qualified to say that up to two representatives per chapter can vote. In a previous post, the original poster said that some chapters sent “several“ representatives. Based on what we have been told by the bylaws, I would think that only two representatives per chapter would be able to vote. I'd want to check the bylaws, but I am in agreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmuel Gerber Posted October 5, 2020 at 08:09 PM Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 at 08:09 PM 19 hours ago, Guest C. Renee said: Each sorority or fraternity is allowed to send at least 2 representatives to the council meeting per the bylaws. 5 hours ago, Guest C. Renee said: Per the bylaws, each chapter can have up to 2 representatives but it does not state how many can vote. I hope you realize that these statements are the opposite of each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C. Renee Posted October 5, 2020 at 10:59 PM Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 at 10:59 PM Thanks everyone for your insights and different perspectives. The organization definitely has a lot of work to do in clarifying the bylaws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted October 5, 2020 at 11:08 PM Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 at 11:08 PM 2 hours ago, Shmuel Gerber said: I hope you realize that these statements are the opposite of each other. Yes, they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. J. Posted October 5, 2020 at 11:10 PM Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 at 11:10 PM 3 hours ago, Shmuel Gerber said: I hope you realize that these statements are the opposite of each other. Well as sorority or fraternity could choose to send one delegate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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