Meeting without agenda

[Guest Puzzling]

In

https://robertsrules.forumflash.com/topic/36694-intrinsically-irrelevant-negative-votes-from-the-winter-2021-national-parliamentarian/

It is said:

It is certainly possible to have a meeting without an agenda or order of business

I am just puzzling how?

 

[George Mervosh]

9 minutes ago, Guest Puzzling said:

In

https://robertsrules.forumflash.com/topic/36694-intrinsically-irrelevant-negative-votes-from-the-winter-2021-national-parliamentarian/

It is said:

It is certainly possible to have a meeting without an agenda or order of business

I am just puzzling how?

 

Did you read Mr. Gerber's comment in post #2?

[Guest Puzzling]

5 minutes ago, George Mervosh said:

Did you read Mr. Gerber's comment in post #2?

Yes

My question is more based on J.J. s post #5 (post#1 where Mr Gerber's comment was about said

"is it possible to have an efficient and productive meeting?  No ' 

 

[Josh Martin]

1 hour ago, Guest Puzzling said:

In

https://robertsrules.forumflash.com/topic/36694-intrinsically-irrelevant-negative-votes-from-the-winter-2021-national-parliamentarian/

It is said:

It is certainly possible to have a meeting without an agenda or order of business

I am just puzzling how?

If an assembly meets less frequently than quarterly, the standard order of business does not apply. If the assembly also does not have a special order of business adopted for its use, then there is no default order of business for the assembly's meetings. Assemblies of this nature generally adopt an agenda, but if this is not done, then members may introduce any item of business which is otherwise in order at any time that no other business is pending.

The standard order of business (and I am inclined to think most special orders of business) are also not applicable to special meetings. Such meetings are called solely for the purpose of considering the items included in the call. As a result, the adoption of an agenda (or order of business) is generally unnecessary, unless perhaps the special meeting is called to handle a large number of items.

1 hour ago, Guest Puzzling said:

Yes

My question is more based on J.J. s post #5 (post#1 where Mr Gerber's comment was about said

"is it possible to have an efficient and productive meeting?  No ' 

The statement "If a vote to adopt an agenda is defeated, is it possible to have an efficient and productive meeting? No." was the opinion expressed by the author of the article in question, not a rule in RONR. It should further be noted that the author's opinion in this regard suggested this was the case even if the assembly followed the standard order of business or a special order of business adopted by the society. The rules in RONR, however, do in fact contain rules for the arrangement of items of business within most of the headings in the standard order of business, such that it should not be necessary to adopt an agenda for most meetings where the standard order of business is applicable.

Edited February 23, 2021 at 03:48 PM by Josh Martin

[Richard Brown]

Guest Puzzling, I'm curious:  Why did you start a new thread rather than continuing with the existing thread on this topic?  Then everything would have been together in one thread and it would be much easier to follow.  You are addressing a post JJ made in that thread.  Now, however, we have to hop back and forth between threads to follow what you are talking about and people posting are having to reference responses in the other thread.  Your concerns were being addressed in the original thread and it seems that was the proper place for your follow up questions and discussion.  It's much easier to follow a conversation that way.

[Guest Puzzling]

1 hour ago, Richard Brown said:

Guest Puzzling, I'm curious:  Why did you start a new thread rather than continuing with the existing thread on this topic?  Then everything would have been together in one thread and it would be much easier to follow

I thought that the original thread would go more over a discussion on " Intrinsically Irrelevant Negative Votes " (like with minutes and maybe other situations) 

And I wanted to learn more about  " meetings without agenda" .

(I wrongly thought that without agenda outside a special meeting the standard order of business would be the agenda)

[Josh Martin]

40 minutes ago, Guest Puzzling said:

I thought that the original thread would go more over a discussion on " Intrinsically Irrelevant Negative Votes " (like with minutes and maybe other situations) 

But those situations are not examples of "intrinsically irrelevant negative votes" in the sense that term is used in RONR. There are a rare few situations in which the negative vote is not called for (fewer than the article suggests), but RONR only describes the negative vote as "intrinsically irrelevant" in one of those situations.

"Voting requirements based on the number of members present—a majority of those present, two thirds of those present, etc.—while possible, are generally undesirable. Since an abstention in such cases has the same effect as a negative vote, these bases deny members the right to maintain a neutral position by abstaining. For the same reason, members present who fail to vote through indifference rather than through deliberate neutrality may affect the result negatively. When such a vote is required, however, the chair must count those present immediately after the affirmative vote is taken, before any change can take place in attendance. The negative vote is not taken, since it is intrinsically irrelevant to determining whether the motion is adopted. (See 4:35.)" RONR (12th ed.) 44:9

The only other main example in which the negative vote is not taken are courtesy resolutions (provided no member objects). This really has nothing to do with whether the negative vote is relevant - it is simply presumed that most members will generally not openly object to a motion to thank someone.

The minutes are not really a good example of a situation where the negative vote is not taken because, while it is correct that the negative vote is not taken in approving the minutes, neither is the affirmative vote. Certainly, if no vote whatsoever is taken, the negative vote is not taken.

In a similar fashion, in an election taken by ballot or roll call, the negative vote is not taken, but neither is the affirmative vote. Rather, members vote for a candidate of their choice. If the election is taken by voice/show of hands/rising vote (which is not recommended), however, the vote is taken in the ordinary fashion and both the affirmative vote and the negative vote are taken.

40 minutes ago, Guest Puzzling said:

(I wrongly thought that without agenda outside a special meeting the standard order of business would be the agenda)

That's not entirely wrong. The standard order of business is the order of business if the assembly meets at least as frequently as quarterly.

Edited February 23, 2021 at 06:37 PM by Josh Martin