Caryn Ann Harlos Posted February 25, 2021 at 06:39 PM Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 at 06:39 PM I am reading some old history of the organization I am involved with and reading the written argument of one of the parties involved in a dispute over whether or not the Chair had the authority to unilaterally fire the National Director (a paid staff member). My interest isn't whether she did or not but about an argument filed on behalf of the fired National Director. At a meeting, the full board objected to her unilateral filing by point of order. The Chair ruled that she had that authority since the Bylaws say she is Chief Executive Officer as per the Bylaws and it was countered that the Bylaws further state that the entire Board is tasked with the management of the affairs of the organization. Putting aside whether or not she should have vacated the Chair during this dispute etc The argument made was that the Chair can only rule in matters related to presiding and parliamentary law and not in matters related to other duties she has (such as being CEO). Is that correct? Isn't whether or not the bylaws give her that authority an issue of parliamentary law? (this is a long dead case, it is from 1980 but the argument raised my curiosity - the written arguments are poor in other areas so it really made me question this one) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted February 25, 2021 at 07:03 PM Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 at 07:03 PM 17 minutes ago, Caryn Ann Harlos said: Putting aside whether or not she should have vacated the Chair during this dispute etc The argument made was that the Chair can only rule in matters related to presiding and parliamentary law and not in matters related to other duties she has (such as being CEO). Is that correct? Isn't whether or not the bylaws give her that authority an issue of parliamentary law? The question of what authority the bylaws give the president/chair/presiding officer outside of serving as the presiding officer is a matter within the discretion of the organization. The organization, through the bylaws, may confer all sorts of power and authority on the "president" (I'm using that term for simplicity) or other officers as part of their administrative duties outside of meetings. It's not really a question of parliamentary procedure. It is up to the organization (or in your case, I imagine, the "board") to interpret those provisions. I can't give you the RONR citation at the moment, but it is in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryn Ann Harlos Posted February 25, 2021 at 07:23 PM Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 at 07:23 PM So can the Chair rule on that? Or does the board as a whole make a decision? That seemed to be the bone of contention in 1980. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted February 25, 2021 at 07:37 PM Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 at 07:37 PM (edited) 16 minutes ago, Caryn Ann Harlos said: So can the Chair rule on that? Or does the board as a whole make a decision? That seemed to be the bone of contention in 1980. Regarding a point of order, 23:2 2) states "Can be applied to any breach of the assembly's rules." 23:2 7) states "Is normally ruled upon by the chair. No vote is taken unless the chair is in doubt or his ruling is appealed. " I'm inclined to think "any" means any and there are no additional exceptions in 7), so I think the answer to your first question is, yes. The board will have the final say if the chair puts the question to the assembly, or if they simply appeal the chair's ruling. Edited February 25, 2021 at 07:40 PM by George Mervosh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryn Ann Harlos Posted February 25, 2021 at 07:48 PM Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 at 07:48 PM In a related question, what version of RONR was in effect in 1980? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Katz Posted February 25, 2021 at 07:50 PM Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 at 07:50 PM 25 minutes ago, Caryn Ann Harlos said: So can the Chair rule on that? Or does the board as a whole make a decision? That seemed to be the bone of contention in 1980. I'm not buying a bright-line distinction here. When the chair rules on a point of order, it is always subject to appeal. So the question is whether the chair can rule first, or must follow the procedure for submitting a question to the assembly. I'm not aware of any circumstances where the latter is required, so I think the answer is the former. 1 hour ago, Caryn Ann Harlos said: The argument made was that the Chair can only rule in matters related to presiding and parliamentary law and not in matters related to other duties she has (such as being CEO). I might be inclined to agree on this in some philosophical sense, see also the Steel Seizure Cases (Jackson, J., concurring). But I'm not inclined to agree in terms of organization structure. If it were some open-ended question, maybe. But this is simply a case of interpreting the bylaws in the context of a meeting, which seems to be directly related to parliamentary law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted February 25, 2021 at 07:50 PM Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 at 07:50 PM 2 minutes ago, Caryn Ann Harlos said: In a related question, what version of RONR was in effect in 1980? According to this, the Seventh Edition. https://robertsrules.com/our-history/#edition-timeline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted February 25, 2021 at 08:02 PM Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 at 08:02 PM I am inclined to agree with the others who have stated that the chair may rule on any point of order first and that his ruling may be appealed. He may also submit the question directly to the assembly without making a ruling himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted February 25, 2021 at 08:39 PM Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 at 08:39 PM @Caryn Ann Harlos The section in RONR regarding the administrative duties of the president in an organization are in section 47:20. I am still of the opinion that questions about that authority which arise at a meeting are handled just like any other points of order.The chair can make an initial ruling and that ruling can be appealed. In the alternative, the chair can submit the question directly to the assembly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryn Ann Harlos Posted February 25, 2021 at 08:43 PM Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 at 08:43 PM And crap, I am trying to find a 7th edition used somewhere and no luck. Boo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryn Ann Harlos Posted February 25, 2021 at 08:45 PM Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 at 08:45 PM Found one! Yay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted February 25, 2021 at 08:51 PM Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 at 08:51 PM 6 minutes ago, Caryn Ann Harlos said: And crap, I am trying to find a 7th edition used somewhere and no luck. Boo. I think I have one at home if it can be of any help. I should be home in about a half hour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryn Ann Harlos Posted February 25, 2021 at 08:53 PM Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 at 08:53 PM 1 minute ago, Richard Brown said: I think I have one at home if it can be of any help. I should be home in about a half hour I ordered one... I am digging into this old decision for an episode of Cult of RONR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. J. Posted February 25, 2021 at 10:50 PM Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 at 10:50 PM I do have a copy, but I'm not parting with it. You do how to contact me and I'll be happy to read the appropriate section to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted February 26, 2021 at 12:05 AM Report Share Posted February 26, 2021 at 12:05 AM (edited) @Caryn Ann HarlosLike JJ, I also have a copy of the 7th edition and will be happy to read you or transcribe or copy any pertinent parts for you. FYI, the 7th edition is the first of the "Newly Revised" series and the changes from edition to edition have been rather minimal. A few section numbers changed, mostly near the back of the book, but not many, Edited February 26, 2021 at 12:13 AM by Richard Brown Added last paragraph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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