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Special Rules of Order vs. Standing Rules


Mark Apodaca
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Special rules of order require previous notice and 2/3 vote while standing rules require only a majority vote to adopt.  I was looking at the Program Guide  of the 42nd Biennial Convention which took place from September 5 to 8, 2019.  The guide lists standing rules but I do see some which are considered special rules such as the amount of time each member is allowed to debate.  I am under the impression that the standing rules passed with a 2/3 vote.  Shouldn't there be two separate rules (special and standing) for the membership to vote on since one requires 2/3 and the other majority?

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Mark,

See §59:27:

Quote

The standing rules of a convention usually contain both “parliamentary” rules relating to the conduct of business, and nonparliamentary rules, so that in some ways they resemble a combination of special rules of order and ordinary standing rules (2). Since their effect expires at the close of the session that adopts them, however, they differ from either of the latter types of rules in certain respects.

 

 

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On a different topic, but related to standing rules, if the membership passes the standing rules by 2/3 vote, and one of the rules says that a maximum of five members will be allowed to debate a motion (5 for and 5 against) for 3 minutes each, what happens if a member, during a debate, makes a separate motion to extend the time to debate for five additional minutes?  Will it be considered out of order?  

Does this mean that a member needs to make a motion to suspend the rule first, then if it passes by 2/3 vote, another motion needs to be made to extend the time to debate?

 

Mark

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20 minutes ago, Mark Apodaca said:

On a different topic, but related to standing rules, if the membership passes the standing rules by 2/3 vote, and one of the rules says that a maximum of five members will be allowed to debate a motion (5 for and 5 against) for 3 minutes each, what happens if a member, during a debate, makes a separate motion to extend the time to debate for five additional minutes?  Will it be considered out of order?  

Does this mean that a member needs to make a motion to suspend the rule first, then if it passes by 2/3 vote, another motion needs to be made to extend the time to debate?

 

Mark

It would depend on the specific wording of the rule.  Further, unless this would be in a convention. it would be special rule (or an incidental motion to suspend the rules).

Could you include the text.

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Here is the standing rule:

Standing Rule 16 - Debate

  1. Eligibility to Debate on Motions. 
  2. All voting members will have the opportunity to debate and comment on motions submitted prior to the conference.
  3. It is expected that members who debate on motions shall have apprised themselves of the wording, history, and rationale of the motion, and any discussion that has already occurred regarding the motion prior to the business meeting.
  4. Limits on Number of Debaters. A maximum of five (5) members in support of and five (5) members in opposition to the motion/resolution on the floor, may debate each debatable item.
  5. A member may be recognized a second time to address the same issue only if there are no other members desiring recognition to address the issue on the floor and the maximum number of speakers has not yet been reached.
  6. Limit on Length of Debate. Each member is allowed a maximum of two minutes for debate. The meeting Chair or their designee shall enforce this time limitation.
  7. Once five members (5) have spoken in support and five members (5) have spoken in opposition to the motion on the floor, the chair shall take a vote on the motion, as explained more fully in Standing Rule 14. No more members will be permitted to speak in support of or in opposition to that motion unless two-thirds of the members present and voting approve to extend the discussion. 
  8. Points. There are three allowable “points”: point of order, parliamentary inquiry, and request for information. A member who wishes to raise a point of order, make a parliamentary inquiry, or make a request for information may do Upon being recognized by the chair, the member shall activate their video and state the point. The chair shall rule on the point of order, answer the parliamentary inquiry, or respond to the request for information. This member shall not be counted as one of the five speakers in support of or five speakers in opposition to a motion.
  9. Note that there is no “point of information” as is commonly assumed. This point is known as a request for information. As its name implies, a request for information is used to ask for information, not to give information.

Standing Rule 14 - Motions and Resolutions

 

  1. Only voting members in good standing, or bodies within the association, have the right to submit motions or resolutions. Motions or resolutions should have been submitted by May 5, 2021, which was 60 days prior to the first day of the business meeting. 
  2. No motions will be considered that propose to amend the RID Bylaws, or that refer to them, after April 5, 2021, which was 90 days prior to the first business meeting and the deadline for submitting such motions.
  3. Motions or resolutions proposed for the first time during the conference business meeting will be placed on the agenda under New Business, but may not reach the floor due to time limitations. Submit motions via the below form to be considered from the floor of the meeting. https://forms.gle/hM24kbzzeUgQQ2Y99
  4. All motions or resolutions must be submitted in both American Sign Language and English.
  5. Submitted motions or resolutions must include the following elements:
    • Primary submitter(s)’ name(s), RID membership numbers, and contact information
    • Name and RID membership number of persons who is seconding the motion (if applicable)
    • Submission date
    • Text of the motion or resolution
    • Rationale for the motion or resolution
    • Estimated fiscal impact statement
  6. Motions or resolutions proposed by bodies within the association, specifically the Board of Directors, committees, member sections, or affiliate chapters, must include information as to the proper notice given to members of that body, the date of the meeting at which the motion or resolution was adopted, verification of the presence of a quorum of the body at the time which the motion was adopted, verification that a majority of the body was in favor of the action to be proposed, and a fiscal impact statement. These motions or resolutions do not need to be seconded because they come from a body.
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1 hour ago, Mark Apodaca said:

what happens if a member, during a debate, makes a separate motion to extend the time to debate for five additional minutes?  Will it be considered out of order?  

No, because this is exactly the situation described at the end of the proposed standing rule seven. Uline someone would propose to extend the discussion, this motion needs a seconder and is not debatable so the chair would take an immediate vote. It broke wires, as standing rule seven states, a two-thirds vote to be adopted.

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1 hour ago, Mark Apodaca said:

On a different topic, but related to standing rules, if the membership passes the standing rules by 2/3 vote, and one of the rules says that a maximum of five members will be allowed to debate a motion (5 for and 5 against) for 3 minutes each, what happens if a member, during a debate, makes a separate motion to extend the time to debate for five additional minutes?  Will it be considered out of order?  

Does this mean that a member needs to make a motion to suspend the rule first, then if it passes by 2/3 vote, another motion needs to be made to extend the time to debate?

A motion to Limit or Extend Limits of Debate is in order even in an assembly which has adopted its own special rules of order or convention standing rules for limits on debate. The motion requires a 2/3 vote for adoption. It is not necessary to first adopt a separate motion to suspend the rules. Limit or Extend Limits of Debate exists for exactly this purpose.

I think the chair should work with the member, however, to clarify exactly what the member is trying to do. I don't quite understand what is meant by "extend the time to debate for five additional minutes" in this context. Does the member intend to extend the time for each speaker for five minutes? Or a particular speaker for five minutes? Or to permit additional speakers (of a certain number or any number) for five minutes after the number of speakers on each side has been exhausted?

Edited by Josh Martin
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9 minutes ago, Josh Martin said:

I think the chair should work with the member, however, to clarify exactly what the member is trying to do. I don't quite understand what is meant by "extend the time to debate for five additional minutes" in this context. Does the member intend to extend the time for each speaker for five minutes? Or a particular speaker for five minutes? Or to permit additional speakers (of a certain number or any number) for five minutes after the number of speakers on each side has been exhausted?

Just a particular speaker for five minutes till he completes his debate.  They cannot add additional speakers since the limit is five for each (support and oppose) per standing rule. 

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3 hours ago, Mark Apodaca said:

They cannot add additional speakers since the limit is five for each (support and oppose) per standing rule. 

The proposed standing rule number 7 completely contradicts this statement.

4 hours ago, Mark Apodaca said:

No more members will be permitted to speak in support of or in opposition to that motion unless two-thirds of the members present and voting approve to extend the discussion. 

This sentence explicitly allows for more speakers. 

Edited by Atul Kapur
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4 hours ago, Mark Apodaca said:

Just a particular speaker for five minutes till he completes his debate. 

Okay. Yes, that is perfectly fine.

4 hours ago, Mark Apodaca said:

They cannot add additional speakers since the limit is five for each (support and oppose) per standing rule. 

The rule also explicitly states that a 2/3 vote can permit additional speakers. Even if the rule had no such provision, the motion to Limit or Extend Limits of Debate again exists for precisely this purpose.

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Yes, the three minutes was just an example until I was asked to put in the text by JJ.  The standing rules, which were approved yesterday afternoon EST in the beginning of the business meeting, listed 2 minutes.  

Two minutes is insufficient time when it comes to the use of American Sign Language (ASL).  Other business meetings I have attended use 3 to 5 minutes.  But, it was approved by the 280 members.  A very high percent of the members are not deaf and ASL was used.  When thinking English or other languages, the person needs to think about how to translate the language into ASL which takes more time.

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One thing about yesterday's meeting was that Request for Information and Point of Order were used frequently.  Sometimes not related to the motion on hand.  This has happened to a number of deaf-related organizations which I participated as a delegate or parliamentarian.  Back to §41 for review.

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