Speaking at a Meeting

[Larry]

At a board meeting of my organization, members of the organization (not board members) are given an allotted time on the agenda to make comments. Generally, after that, only board members speak.

is there anything in Robert’s Rules, that would prohibit a member of the organization from raising their hand to ask a question and be recognized by the chairman, outside of the member comments part of the meeting?

[Rob Elsman]

Yes, as far as RONR is concerned, members of the general membership assembly who are permitted by the board to attend board meetings are guests who must not try to interrupt or disrupt the proceedings in any way.  RONR (12th ed.) 61:19-21.

[Richard Brown]

I'm going to disagree with my colleague Mr. Elsman, at least in part.  While it is true that guests (non-board members) have no rights at your board meetings other than those rights you afford them, I do not think it is impermissible for a guest to raise his hand to request permission to ask a question or make a comment nor is there anything in RONR which specifically prohibits a guest from doing so.  It is quite common for boards to permit guests to attend their meetings and to sometimes politely attempt to ask a question or to make a comment.  This practice varies widely from one board to another.  It is within the discretion of the chair and/or the board whether to pause and recognize such a guest, at least to  find out the purpose for which he is seeking recognition.  Perhaps a speaker's microphone is turned off or the sound system volume is so low that the guests, who do have the right to attend in the case, cannot hear.  The room might be too hot or cold.  it might be raining in a window.  There might be the smell of smoke in the air. There can be a myriad of reasons why a guest might seek recognition outside of the standard "comment period.  Nothing in RONR  prohibits guests from doing so, it merely prohibits them from being  "an annoyance" or disruptive.

[Josh Martin]

15 hours ago, Larry said:

At a board meeting of my organization, members of the organization (not board members) are given an allotted time on the agenda to make comments. Generally, after that, only board members speak.

is there anything in Robert’s Rules, that would prohibit a member of the organization from raising their hand to ask a question and be recognized by the chairman, outside of the member comments part of the meeting?

So far as RONR is concerned, persons who are not members of the board have no rights to speak at the meeting at all. They may speak only to the extent the board allows them to do so. Since you say that the board has provided for a comment period and that, generally, only board members are permitted to speak after that, it would seem to me that permission of the board would be required for the guests to speak at other times.

15 hours ago, Richard Brown said:

I'm going to disagree with my colleague Mr. Elsman, at least in part.  While it is true that guests (non-board members) have no rights at your board meetings other than those rights you afford them, I do not think it is impermissible for a guest to raise his hand to request permission to ask a question or make a comment nor is there anything in RONR which specifically prohibits a guest from doing so.  It is quite common for boards to permit guests to attend their meetings and to sometimes politely attempt to ask a question or to make a comment.  This practice varies widely from one board to another.  It is within the discretion of the chair and/or the board whether to pause and recognize such a guest, at least to  find out the purpose for which he is seeking recognition.  Perhaps a speaker's microphone is turned off or the sound system volume is so low that the guests, who do have the right to attend in the case, cannot hear.  The room might be too hot or cold.  it might be raining in a window.  There might be the smell of smoke in the air. There can be a myriad of reasons why a guest might seek recognition outside of the standard "comment period.  Nothing in RONR  prohibits guests from doing so, it merely prohibits them from being  "an annoyance" or disruptive.

Whether to recognize a nonmember is at the discretion of the board, not the chair. The chair lacks the authority, acting alone, to permit a nonmember to speak. Certainly, however, the chair might request unanimous consent to permit a person to speak.

[Gary Novosielski]

If the board specifies a period during which remarks from general members are heard, then in my view, once that period has ended the right of those persons to be heard has ended.  I suppose it could be argued that the mere raising of one's hand is not disruptive, but it might be considered annoying, and in any case the person should not expect to be acknowledged.

I don't believe the question was intended to encompass emergent events threatening life or property.

[par]

On 7/26/2021 at 5:12 AM, Josh Martin said:

So far as RONR is concerned, persons who are not members of the board have no rights to speak at the meeting at all. They may speak only to the extent the board allows them to do so. Since you say that the board has provided for a comment period and that, generally, only board members are permitted to speak after that, it would seem to me that permission of the board would be required for the guests to speak at other times.

Whether to recognize a nonmember is at the discretion of the board, not the chair. The chair lacks the authority, acting alone, to permit a nonmember to speak. Certainly, however, the chair might request unanimous consent to permit a person to speak.

Now think about the dynamics this arrangement creates. An HOA board can effectively ignore the voice of the members and pursue their own agenda without having to pay attention to what the rest of the HOA thinks.

RONR, a nice cover for despotism.

 

[Rob Elsman]

Presumably, the "rest" of the home owners' association elected the members of the executive board.

[Dan Honemann]

16 minutes ago, par said:

Now think about the dynamics this arrangement creates. An HOA board can effectively ignore the voice of the members and pursue their own agenda without having to pay attention to what the rest of the HOA thinks.

RONR, a nice cover for despotism.

 

You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Assuming you have a copy of the 12th edition of RONR, read 49:5-7 and 46:41.  If these rules do not apply, it is because the organization itself adopted rules to the contrary or applicable law provides otherwise.

 

[par]

50 minutes ago, Rob Elsman said:

Presumably, the "rest" of the home owners' association elected the members of the executive board.

Most likely via cumulative voting of a few. 

Edited July 28, 2021 at 04:38 PM by par

[par]

39 minutes ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Assuming you have a copy of the 12th edition of RONR, read 49:5-7 and 46:41.  If these rules do not apply, it is because the organization itself adopted rules to the contrary or applicable law provides otherwise.

 

Which completely absolves RONR from any responsibility for the end result

I love how RONR likes to pretend the rules apply to some imaginary and rational participants and not humans on planet Earth.

 

[Weldon Merritt]

1 hour ago, par said:

Which completely absolves RONR from any responsibility for the end result

I love how RONR likes to pretend the rules apply to some imaginary and rational participants and not humans on planet Earth.

 

Thousands of organizations consisting of "humans on planet earth" manage to use RONR very well. If your organization does not, the fault lies not with RONR, but with the members who do not use it to assert their control over the board.

[Gary Novosielski]

5 hours ago, par said:

Now think about the dynamics this arrangement creates. An HOA board can effectively ignore the voice of the members and pursue their own agenda without having to pay attention to what the rest of the HOA thinks.

RONR, a nice cover for despotism.

 

 

Unless your board has infinitely long terms, the despotism charge seems a bit overblown.  Boards who ignore the voice of the members have a way of getting voted out of office.  Don't blame RONR for the apathy of your membership.

Edited July 28, 2021 at 09:34 PM by Gary Novosielski

[Gary Novosielski]

5 hours ago, par said:

Most likely via cumulative voting of a few. 

Cumulative voting is not permitted if the rules in RONR apply.

[Joshua Katz]

7 hours ago, par said:

RONR, a nice cover for despotism.

 

What set of rules do you think will work better? Any rules in which an organization can be shut down by heckling from non-members strikes me as non-ideal, and infinitely vetoable, the flip side of despotism.

RONR, by contrast, prevents that, but works to protect the rights of members against, say, chair despotism.

It sounds like what you actually dislike is the relationship between a board and the entity it governs. That relationship is closer to "despotic" in other contexts, such as corporate law. But when the rules in RONR apply, that relationship exists because the membership made it so in the bylaws. 

[Josh Martin]

21 hours ago, par said:

Now think about the dynamics this arrangement creates. An HOA board can effectively ignore the voice of the members and pursue their own agenda without having to pay attention to what the rest of the HOA thinks.

RONR, a nice cover for despotism.

For starters, I would note that the OP didn't say anything about an HOA, so I don't know why we're inserting that here.

In any event, I would disagree with the assertion that the fact that RONR does not grant nonmembers of a board the right to speak at meetings of the board means that the board "can effectively ignore the voice of the members and pursue their own agenda without having to pay attention to what the rest of the [society] thinks," let alone that this means RONR is "a nice cover for despotism," for reasons such as the following:

1) Although such matters are beyond the scope of RONR and the conduct of business in a deliberative assembly, members presumably have ways of contacting board members outside of a board meeting.

2) The members of the board are elected by the association, and for this reason it would be unwise of them to "ignore the voice of the members" if they wish to continue being elected.

3) Except to the extent that an organization's bylaws or applicable law provide otherwise, an organization's board is subordinate to the society and must follow its instructions. So while a member may not be able to speak at an organization's board meetings, the member has the right to speak at meetings of the society's membership, and at such meetings the assembly can order the board to take actions rather than simply asking the board to do so.

4) Finally, the organization is free to adopt its own rules governing the conduct of board meetings if it wishes to do so. So if an organization wishes to adopt rules requiring that the board permit members to speak at meetings of the board, the organization is free to adopt such rules.

Since your question relates to an HOA, I would add that HOAs are also frequently governed by applicable law, so it would be prudent to see what those laws say on this matter.

20 hours ago, par said:

Most likely via cumulative voting of a few. 

RONR does not permit cumulative voting, proxy voting, or weighted voting. If an organization's bylaws permit such things, that's the organization's own fault. (Or since it's an HOA, perhaps it's the fault of your state legislature.)

Edited July 29, 2021 at 01:13 PM by Josh Martin

[Dan Honemann]

Thank you, Mr. Martin.

[Richard Brown]

18 minutes ago, Josh Martin said:

So while a member may not be able to speak at an organization's board meetings . . . .

Although in this particular case the membership did have the right to speak at the board meeting but one particular member wanted to speak after the designated time for the membership to address the board. So, the membership was not “shut out“ from addressing the board with member concerns.