President's call did not match vote

[Quest]

I have a what if question. Here is the background that caused me to wonder. 

 In a recent board vote the tally was 1 Nay 2 Abstains and 3 Yeas. Someone said out loud that was a tie. Another stated president breaks a tie and he said I vote yes then. Now it was clearly established finally that abstains are non votes and that it was in fact not a tie and the president announced the count true count and that the motion carried.

The minutes reflect the actual count and the motion carried.

We will address this matter with our new board regarding breaking a tie because our bylaws are silent and clearly understanding what abstain means.

However! WHAT IF the president had ended up announcing the motion status wrong? Does what he SAY finalize the matter or what is documented by vote? When the gavel goes down and the matter announced as passing by a flawed interpretation of abstain?

 

 

Edited August 9, 2021 at 11:56 AM by Quest

[Dan Honemann]

13 minutes ago, Quest said:

I have a what if question. Here is the background that caused me to wonder. 

 In a recent board vote the tally was 1 Nay 2 Abstains and 3 Yeas. Someone said out loud that was a tie. Another stated president breaks a tie and he said I vote yes then. Now it was clearly established finally that abstains are non votes and that it was in fact not a tie and the president announced the count true count and that the motion carried.

The minutes reflect the actual count and the motion carried.

We will address this matter with our new board regarding breaking a tie because our bylaws are silent and clearly understanding what abstain means.

However! WHAT IF the president had ended up announcing the motion status wrong? Does what he SAY finalize the matter or what is documented by vote? When the gavel goes down and the matter announced as passing by a flawed interpretation of abstain?

 

 

Don't you have your facts mixed up a little?

[Quest]

Facts of what took place or facts of the conclusion of the matter? 

The vote was 1 nay, 2 abstains and 3 yeas. Are you suggesting that IS a tie? I am not clear what you are asking.

I am open to any observations.

Edited August 9, 2021 at 12:51 PM by Quest

[Joshua Katz]

58 minutes ago, Quest said:

1 Nay 2 Abstains and 3 Yeas

It seems likely that this is a small board, in which the president would vote with the members (assuming he is a member, which he must be here if he's voting at all). In any event, though, the rule for larger boards is not that the president breaks ties. The rule is that the president may vote when it would change the outcome. That's not the case here either BUT remember that the president has the right to vote and is simply expected not to exercise it. If the does, in fact, exercise it, his vote counts like anyone else's. Not that it matters here, of course, where the outcome isn't impacted.

1 hour ago, Quest said:

The minutes reflect the actual count and the motion carried.

 

Unless it was a roll call vote, the minutes should reflect only that the motion carried, not the count.

 

[Quest]

1 minute ago, Joshua Katz said:

It seems likely that this is a small board, in which the president would vote with the members (assuming he is a member, which he must be here if he's voting at all). In any event, though, the rule for larger boards is not that the president breaks ties. The rule is that the president may vote when it would change the outcome. That's not the case here either BUT remember that the president has the right to vote and is simply expected not to exercise it. If the does, in fact, exercise it, his vote counts like anyone else's. Not that it matters here, of course, where the outcome isn't impacted.

Unless it was a roll call vote, the minutes should reflect only that the motion carried, not the count.

 

Good information. We do Roll call votes on every issue. Still a little fuzzy on a technicality. Did the actual vote drive the fact the motion carried or the president declaring it to be so? Again 'What if' the vote a vote is affirmative and the president states the motion failed. If only what he states is documented the true vote count is lost. I guess I am asking can a president literally call a motion conclusion incorrectly yet his calling it makes it final?

[Dan Honemann]

11 minutes ago, Quest said:

Facts of what took place or facts of the conclusion of the matter? 

The vote was 1 nay, 2 abstains and 3 yeas. Are you suggesting that IS a tie? I am not clear what you are asking.

I am open to any observations.

In your "what if", the announcement by the chair that the motion passed was entirely correct.

[Joshua Katz]

Just now, Quest said:

I guess I am asking can a president literally call a motion conclusion incorrectly yet his calling it makes it final?

Certainly not. When the chair incorrectly announces the result, a point of order should be raised. His simply saying so does not make it final, but failure to object does.

[Quest]

4 minutes ago, Joshua Katz said:

Certainly not. When the chair incorrectly announces the result, a point of order should be raised. His simply saying so does not make it final, but failure to object does.

That was what I was looking for for future possibilities. One last thing...CAN such an error also be caught in the minutes later and challenged since we do roll call votes and document them in the minutes? Or are you saying the only time it can be corrected is in that meeting with a point of order? 

[Joshua Katz]

Others might chime in on this, but I believe it may only be challenged at the time. The failure to object means that the assembly has accepted the ruling. But see what others think.

[Dan Honemann]

3 minutes ago, Joshua Katz said:

Others might chime in on this, but I believe it may only be challenged at the time. The failure to object means that the assembly has accepted the ruling. But see what others think.

You have this right. A point of order concerning a rule violation of this sort must be raised promptly at the time when it occurs.

[Joshua Katz]

Thank you.

[Quest]

Thank you! As one who wants to know the why, not just the rule....

WHY does Robert's Rules lean that finality? What is the logic and reasoning behind it?

Edited August 9, 2021 at 01:42 PM by Quest

[Dan Honemann]

2 hours ago, Quest said:

Thank you! As one who wants to know the why, not just the rule....

WHY does Robert's Rules lean that finality? What is the logic and reasoning behind it?

I suggest that you, yourself, spend some time giving serious thought to this, and then let us know what you have decided.

[Shmuel Gerber]

9 hours ago, Quest said:

That was what I was looking for for future possibilities. One last thing...CAN such an error also be caught in the minutes later and challenged since we do roll call votes and document them in the minutes? Or are you saying the only time it can be corrected is in that meeting with a point of order? 

When a vote has been taken by roll call, a member can move that the vote be recounted (within certain time limits).

But in the situation you are referring to, it seems that everyone was clear about what the actual vote tallies were, and the only question was about what the rules say as to whether or not the motion should be declared adopted. 

[Gary Novosielski]

9 hours ago, Quest said:

Facts of what took place or facts of the conclusion of the matter? 

The vote was 1 nay, 2 abstains and 3 yeas. Are you suggesting that IS a tie? I am not clear what you are asking.

I am open to any observations.

You can help avoid problems like this by noting that abstentions should never be called for or counted.  (On a roll-call vote they do get recorded, but abstentions are not votes.)   The number of members voting is the sum of the yeas and nays.

The vote in this case was 3 yeas and 1 nay.  That would pass the threshold for a majority vote, a 2/3 vote and a 3/4 vote for that matter.  

[Gary Novosielski]

Just now, Gary Novosielski said:

You can help avoid problems like this by noting that abstentions should never be called for or counted.  (On a roll-call vote they do get recorded, but abstentions are not votes.)   The number of members voting is the sum of the yeas and nays.

The vote in this case was 3 yeas and 1 nay.  That would pass the threshold for a majority vote, a 2/3 vote and a 3/4 vote for that matter.  

The presiding officer is usually called last in a roll-call, and may choose to vote or not.  Often, if the president's vote would not affect the outcome, he may choose not to vote, or may vote.  in small boards he has every right to vote.

But note well that it is never the case the the president, having vote once, then gets a second vote to "break" a tie.  Nobody gets more than one vote.  And ties do not need to be "broken".  Since a tie is less than a majority, the motion simply fails normally.