Guest Jane Posted November 26, 2021 at 10:43 PM Report Share Posted November 26, 2021 at 10:43 PM If a recommendation/motion comes out of committee, i.e., slate of officers from the nominating committee, is that consider the 'motion' and a second is not required? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted November 26, 2021 at 10:51 PM Report Share Posted November 26, 2021 at 10:51 PM On 11/26/2021 at 5:43 PM, Guest Jane said: If a recommendation/motion comes out of committee, i.e., slate of officers from the nominating committee, is that consider the 'motion' and a second is not required? Yes, if a recommendation/motion comes out of a committee of more than one member, no second is required. However I think that a slate of officers list of nominees would be a report of the committee but not necessarily a motion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zev Posted November 27, 2021 at 08:33 AM Report Share Posted November 27, 2021 at 08:33 AM On 11/26/2021 at 2:51 PM, Gary Novosielski said: However I think that a slate of officers list of nominees would be a report of the committee but not necessarily a motion. So a report from the Nominating Committee that they have no recommendation or instead a report that so-and-so be elected are one and the same thing, that is, they propose nothing and are therefore not motions. Correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weldon Merritt Posted November 27, 2021 at 03:57 PM Report Share Posted November 27, 2021 at 03:57 PM On 11/27/2021 at 1:33 AM, Guest Zev said: So a report from the Nominating Committee that they have no recommendation or instead a report that so-and-so be elected are one and the same thing, that is, they propose nothing and are therefore not motions. Correct? IMO, neither of those reports would be proper. The committee has a duty to nominate candidate, but that's all they do; nominate. The election comes later. Maybe at the same meeting, or a later meeting. But in any event, nomination and election are two distinct steps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Katz Posted November 27, 2021 at 04:03 PM Report Share Posted November 27, 2021 at 04:03 PM On 11/27/2021 at 10:57 AM, Weldon Merritt said: The committee has a duty to nominate candidate, but that's all they do; nominate. Isn't a nomination, whether by committee or by an individual, a proposal that the nominated person be elected? I think the best analogy is probably to a proposal to fill a blank, and I don't think it's a stretch to say that making a proposal to fill a blank is akin to a statement that that proposal *should* fill the blank. (Would a person be allowed to speak in debate against his proposal to fill the blank? I don't know.) In other words, when I say "I nominate Jim," am I not moving that Jim be elected? I might lose, but it seems to me that that is what I am doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted November 27, 2021 at 04:26 PM Report Share Posted November 27, 2021 at 04:26 PM On 11/27/2021 at 11:03 AM, Joshua Katz said: In other words, when I say "I nominate Jim," am I not moving that Jim be elected? I might lose, but it seems to me that that is what I am doing. As you previously indicated, and as stated in 46:1, a nomination is more akin to a proposal to fill a blank, but I suppose no one will get overly upset if you call it a motion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Katz Posted November 27, 2021 at 04:48 PM Report Share Posted November 27, 2021 at 04:48 PM On 11/27/2021 at 11:26 AM, Dan Honemann said: As you previously indicated, and as stated in 46:1, a nomination is more akin to a proposal to fill a blank, but I suppose no one will get overly upset if you call it a motion. Isn't a proposal to fill a blank akin to a motion that the thing I wish to fill it with be adopted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Elsman Posted November 27, 2021 at 05:13 PM Report Share Posted November 27, 2021 at 05:13 PM When Mr. Honemann uses the word "akin", he is indicating that an election of officers is not exactly the same thing as filling a blank. For one thing, the completion of an election also completes the handling of the presumed, underlying main motion. When a blank is filled, the underlying motion is still pending. Therefore, it is important not to take the comparison of the two procedures too far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zev Posted November 27, 2021 at 09:51 PM Report Share Posted November 27, 2021 at 09:51 PM Quote 46:1 A nomination is, in effect, a proposal to fill the blank in an assumed motion "that ____ be elected" to the specified position. I was relying on this passage. Perhaps I misunderstood what it meant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weldon Merritt Posted November 28, 2021 at 01:25 AM Report Share Posted November 28, 2021 at 01:25 AM On 11/27/2021 at 9:03 AM, Joshua Katz said: Isn't a nomination, whether by committee or by an individual, a proposal that the nominated person be elected? I agree that it generally is safe to assume that a nomination is am indication that the nominator believes the nominee should be elected. But I still think it would be improper for a nominating committee to couch its report in the form "that [name of nominee] be elected." I believe that would encourage the erroneous practice of voting "yes" or "no" on the committee's proposal rather than seeking additional nominations and then conducting a proper election. Better and less confusing to just stick with "the committee nominates [name of nominee]." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted November 28, 2021 at 11:30 AM Report Share Posted November 28, 2021 at 11:30 AM On 11/27/2021 at 8:25 PM, Weldon Merritt said: I agree that it generally is safe to assume that a nomination is am indication that the nominator believes the nominee should be elected. But I still think it would be improper for a nominating committee to couch its report in the form "that [name of nominee] be elected." I believe that would encourage the erroneous practice of voting "yes" or "no" on the committee's proposal rather than seeking additional nominations and then conducting a proper election. Better and less confusing to just stick with "the committee nominates [name of nominee]." Oh, I thought this was all just a little fuss about nomenclature. I agree that the report of a nominating committee should be made as shown in RONR, 12 ed., 46:15, or something very close to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weldon Merritt Posted November 28, 2021 at 03:54 PM Report Share Posted November 28, 2021 at 03:54 PM On 11/28/2021 at 4:30 AM, Dan Honemann said: Oh, I thought this was all just a little fuss about nomenclature. I suppose it is. But sometimes nomenclature can be important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted November 28, 2021 at 04:58 PM Report Share Posted November 28, 2021 at 04:58 PM On 11/28/2021 at 10:54 AM, Weldon Merritt said: I suppose it is. But sometimes nomenclature can be important. Okay, I agree that nomenclature can sometimes be important, and I agree that nominations and proposals to fill a blank, strictly speaking, are not motions. Now are we all happy? 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weldon Merritt Posted November 28, 2021 at 07:37 PM Report Share Posted November 28, 2021 at 07:37 PM On 11/28/2021 at 9:58 AM, Dan Honemann said: Now are we all happy? 🙂 I am. 😄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted November 28, 2021 at 11:52 PM Report Share Posted November 28, 2021 at 11:52 PM On 11/28/2021 at 11:58 AM, Dan Honemann said: Okay, I agree that nomenclature can sometimes be important, and I agree that nominations and proposals to fill a blank, strictly speaking, are not motions. Now are we all happy? 🙂 Blissful. 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmuel Gerber Posted November 29, 2021 at 01:22 AM Report Share Posted November 29, 2021 at 01:22 AM Reading this thread has made me happy too. (Or maybe it's the doughnuts.) 🙂 In any event, I'll just point out that nominations never need to be seconded, even when made by an individual member. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted November 29, 2021 at 03:02 PM Report Share Posted November 29, 2021 at 03:02 PM (edited) On 11/28/2021 at 11:58 AM, Dan Honemann said: Okay, I agree that nomenclature can sometimes be important, and I agree that nominations and proposals to fill a blank, strictly speaking, are not motions. Now are we all happy? 🙂 Dagnabit, I guess I need to stop calling nominations Motion #53. Edited November 29, 2021 at 03:05 PM by George Mervosh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted November 29, 2021 at 03:14 PM Report Share Posted November 29, 2021 at 03:14 PM On 11/29/2021 at 10:02 AM, George Mervosh said: Dagnabit, I guess I need to stop calling nominations Motion #53. Well yeah, that's why #53 has that thingamajig in the first column. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted November 29, 2021 at 04:33 PM Report Share Posted November 29, 2021 at 04:33 PM On 11/29/2021 at 10:14 AM, Dan Honemann said: Well yeah, that's why #53 has that thingamajig in the first column. Yeah, that thingamajig, something like a dash, is not explained in the Key to Classification, which I presume means that nominations have no class, which explains a lot now that I think about it. In any case it only deepens that mystery of whether they are motions or not. I suspect the reason it was stuck in at #53 is that the integer 53 is the smallest prime number that does not divide the order of any sporadic finite group. Who knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmuel Gerber Posted November 29, 2021 at 05:46 PM Report Share Posted November 29, 2021 at 05:46 PM On 11/29/2021 at 11:33 AM, Gary Novosielski said: Yeah, that thingamajig, something like a dash Oh, *that* first column. In the other first column (you know, the first one), it says "Nominations, to make (46)", and honestly I had no idea what Dan was talking about. 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted November 29, 2021 at 06:05 PM Report Share Posted November 29, 2021 at 06:05 PM On 11/29/2021 at 12:46 PM, Shmuel Gerber said: Oh, *that* first column. In the other first column (you know, the first one), it says "Nominations, to make (46)", and honestly I had no idea what Dan was talking about. 🙂 I was obviously talking about the first column after the first column, which is how everyone in his right mind refers to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted November 29, 2021 at 06:11 PM Report Share Posted November 29, 2021 at 06:11 PM On 11/29/2021 at 1:05 PM, Dan Honemann said: I was obviously talking about the first column after the first column, which is how everyone in his right mind refers to it. I counted the leftmost column as the zeroth column, making the first column the first column after the zeroth column. But I still don't know what the -- mark means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmuel Gerber Posted November 29, 2021 at 06:14 PM Report Share Posted November 29, 2021 at 06:14 PM On 11/29/2021 at 1:05 PM, Dan Honemann said: I was obviously talking about the first column after the first column, which is how everyone in his right mind refers to it. 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted November 29, 2021 at 06:14 PM Report Share Posted November 29, 2021 at 06:14 PM On 11/29/2021 at 1:11 PM, Gary Novosielski said: But I still don't know what the -- mark means. It means it ain't a motion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted November 29, 2021 at 06:18 PM Report Share Posted November 29, 2021 at 06:18 PM On 11/29/2021 at 1:14 PM, Dan Honemann said: It means it ain't a motion. Excellent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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