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Scope of amendment on motion to ratify


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On 3/11/2022 at 7:45 AM, J. J. said:

Well, following on Zev's point, what if the motion to ratify is to "ratify the board's action to repair the pipe."  Do you rule that out of order because it does not ratify a motion? 

No, you don't, but we're presuming here that the pipe was actually repaired.  It could well be that the repair was not yet undertaken, pending the outcome of the motion to Ratify.

On 3/11/2022 at 7:45 AM, J. J. said:

Further, the description at 10:54 indicates that ratify is used approve "an action," not a motion. 

Adoption of a motion is an action.

On 3/11/2022 at 7:45 AM, J. J. said:

Further "censure" in not limited, either as a main motion or as an amendment to Ratify (12:20).  The use of censure in regard to Ratify is an example, not a limitation. 

Censure is not limited to a motion to Ratify, but a motion to Ratify can be limited to a substitute of Censure.  And its inclusion in the Standard Descriptive Characteristics supports that view.

Edited by Gary Novosielski
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On 3/11/2022 at 11:41 AM, Gary Novosielski said:

No, you don't, but we're presuming here that the pipe was actually repaired.  It could well be that the repair was not yet undertaken, pending the outcome of the motion to Ratify.

Adoption of a motion is an action.

Censure is not limited to a motion to Ratify, but a motion to Ratify can be limited to a substitute of Censure.  And its inclusion in the Standard Descriptive Characteristics supports that view.

1.  If the repair was not done, the assembly does not need to ratify it.

2.  The adoption of a motion is not the only action.  The repair of the pipe is the action as well.

3.  No, a motion to Ratify cannot limited to some form amend to censure, any more that a motion to commend can be "limited" to censure.

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On 3/11/2022 at 1:15 PM, J. J. said:

1.  If the repair was not done, the assembly does not need to ratify it.

Correct.  But they are free to ratify the motion if they wish to.

 

On 3/11/2022 at 1:15 PM, J. J. said:

2.  The adoption of a motion is not the only action.  The repair of the pipe is the action as well.

They are two different actions, and can be ratified, or not, independently.

 

On 3/11/2022 at 1:15 PM, J. J. said:

3.  No, a motion to Ratify cannot limited to some form amend to censure, any more that a motion to commend can be "limited" to censure.

While the motion to Ratify is a specific type of motion in RONR, with its own SDCs, there is no corresponding motion to Commend, so the comparison is not apt.  A motion to commend is an ordinary main motion, and obeys the rules for those.  If it had its own separate description, things might be different, depending on the language.

Edited by Gary Novosielski
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On 3/11/2022 at 1:53 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

 

 

They are two different actions, and can be ratified, or not, independently.

 

While the motion to Ratify is a specific type of motion in RONR, with its own SDCs, there is no corresponding motion to Commend, so the comparison is not apt.  A motion to commend is an ordinary main motion, and obeys the rules for those.  If it had its own separate description, things might be different, depending on the language.

The initial point was that the [i]are[/i] two different actions and that the motion to ratify could be divided or one part struck out.  So you are now agreeing with that.

Please give the location for the specific SDC's for the motion to Ratify.

On your first comment, I'd suggest you follow Mr. Elsman's advice.

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On 3/10/2022 at 8:33 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

It seems to me that the standard descriptive characteristic on amendment does mean that the substitution of a motion to censure is the only amendment allowed.  Otherwise it would just say that it may be amended.  The fact that a motion of censure can be substituted is mentioned elsewhere, so it's not necessary to specify it in the S.D.C., unless the intent was to limit its application.

Mr. Novosielski makes a cogent point here.  RONR is obliged (in 10:56) to point out that a motion to ratify can be amended by substituting a motion of censure for the very reason that amendment of a motion to ratify is extremely limited. If this limitation did not exist, it would not be necessary to provide this explanation.

A very similar situation occurs with respect to the motion to Rescind, where RONR is obliged to point out (in 35:2(6)) that such a motion can be amended by substituting for it a motion to amend what is proposed to be rescinded.

An act that has been taken cannot be partially ratified, just as something that has been adopted cannot be partially rescinded.

But now I have gone and broken my promise to myself not to prolong this agony.  🙂

 

 

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On 3/10/2022 at 8:02 PM, Guest Zev said:

Why is a motion to ratify even required? Just move the motion to fix the broken pipe, or the carpet, let the inquorate motion die and be done with it. However, if someone jumps in front of you and moves a ratification you then need to urge the assembly to Postpone Indefinitely in the strongest terms possible, an in that event you will move a motion to deal with only the desired part. In this fashion we stay clear of the possibility of 38:3.

This approach would reopen the original motion to further amendment and potentially much longer debate.  Ratifying, either in whole or part depending upon whether the motion to ratify is divisible, keeps it a much simpler process.

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On 3/11/2022 at 5:08 PM, Dan Honemann said:

Mr. Novosielski makes a cogent point here.  RONR is obliged (in 10:56) to point out that a motion to ratify can be amended by substituting a motion of censure for the very reason that amendment of a motion to ratify is extremely limited. If this limitation did not exist, it would not be necessary to provide this explanation.

A very similar situation occurs with respect to the motion to Rescind, where RONR is obliged to point out (in 35:2(6)) that such a motion can be amended by substituting for it a motion to amend what is proposed to be rescinded.

An act that has been taken cannot be partially ratified, just as something that has been adopted cannot be partially rescinded.

But now I have gone and broken my promise to myself not to prolong this agony.  🙂

 

 

A motion may be partially rescinded, by the different form of the same motion, Amend Something Previously Adopted.  Your analogy illustrates that a motion to Ratify can be amended, at least to the point of declining to ratify everything that was done.

An assembly could not ratify some action not taken, much like it could not rescind some action not taken.  It could ratify part of some action taken, much like using Amend Something Previously Adopted to partially rescind some action previously taken.

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On 3/12/2022 at 5:34 AM, J. J. said:

A motion may be partially rescinded, by the different form of the same motion, Amend Something Previously Adopted. 

The point, however, is that a motion to Rescind can only be amended by substituting for it a motion to Amend Something Previously Adopted.  Thus the analogy to a motion to Ratify.

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On 3/11/2022 at 3:03 PM, Rob Elsman said:

Uh, oh!  Someone is getting ready to go to the woodshed.  I suggest re-reading RONR (12th ed.) 10:54 in a hurry.  Maybe begging for mercy will assuage the Wrath.

On 3/11/2022 at 5:08 PM, Dan Honemann said:

Mr. Novosielski makes a cogent point here. 

Well, I appear to have dodged a hickory stick.

The only change I would make to my statement is, rather than "ratify the motion" I would say "ratify the (improper) adoption of the motion".  It appears to me that when 10:54 says "action taken" it includes the action of adopting some piece of business.  Surely it does not demand that the pipe be repaired before adjournment.

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On 3/12/2022 at 6:15 AM, Dan Honemann said:

The point, however, is that a motion to Rescind can only be amended by substituting for it a motion to Amend Something Previously Adopted.  Thus the analogy to a motion to Ratify.

They are two forms of the same, not an amendment (35:1).  That is where your analogy falls flat.

Rescind could be amended by striking out or inserting some other action. 

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On 3/12/2022 at 9:22 AM, Gary Novosielski said:

Well, I appear to have dodged a hickory stick.

The only change I would make to my statement is, rather than "ratify the motion" I would say "ratify the (improper) adoption of the motion".  It appears to me that when 10:54 says "action taken" it includes the action of adopting some piece of business.  Surely it does not demand that the pipe be repaired before adjournment.

Can some action that was not done by a motion be ratified?  

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On 3/12/2022 at 2:32 PM, J. J. said:

Can some action that was not done by a motion be ratified?  

Yes; I can't give the cite at the moment cuz I'm on the road -- but among the 'actions' that can be ratified are those taken by officers or others beyond their scope of authority.  [Assuming, the board has the authority itself.]

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I agree with your answer.

On 3/12/2022 at 7:30 PM, smb said:

Yes; I can't give the cite at the moment cuz I'm on the road -- but among the 'actions' that can be ratified are those taken by officers or others beyond their scope of authority.  [Assuming, the board has the authority itself.]

Well, an officer takes action to repair the pipe and, a few days later, have the carpet cleaned.

We are being led to believe by some, including Mr. Novosielski, that a motion "to ratify the actions of cleaning the carpet and repairing the pipe," is not amendable (nor apparently divisible).  I respectfully disagree with that premise. 

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On 3/13/2022 at 9:04 AM, J. J. said:

I agree with your answer.

Well, an officer takes action to repair the pipe and, a few days later, have the carpet cleaned.

We are being led to believe by some, including Mr. Novosielski, that a motion "to ratify the actions of cleaning the carpet and repairing the pipe," is not amendable (nor apparently divisible).  I respectfully disagree with that premise. 

This completely misconstrues what has been said, which is that a motion to ratify the act (singular) which the board took when it adopted the described motion cannot be divided.  A motion to ratify acts (plural) taken by officers could be.

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On 3/13/2022 at 9:26 AM, Dan Honemann said:

This completely misconstrues what has been said, which is that a motion to ratify the act (singular) which the board took when it adopted the described motion cannot be divided.  A motion to ratify acts (plural) taken by officers could be.

Well, then, the claim that the motion Ratify cannot be divided is incorrect. 

The same motion, i.e. "to ratify the actions of cleaning the carpet and repairing the pipe," could be amended by striking out the words "of cleaning the carpet and."  Is  that correct? 

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On 3/13/2022 at 9:36 AM, J. J. said:

Well, then, the claim that the motion Ratify cannot be divided is incorrect. 

The same motion, i.e. "to ratify the actions of cleaning the carpet and repairing the pipe," could be amended by striking out the words "of cleaning the carpet and."  Is  that correct? 

A motion "to ratify the actions taken by the president in contracting for repair of the pipe, and in contracting for the cleaning of the carpet, and the actions of the treasurer in paying the bills for such services" can, of course, be divided.

A motion to ratify the act taken by the board when it adopted the motion that it adopted cannot be divided.

This is what I have been saying all along.

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On 3/13/2022 at 9:54 AM, Dan Honemann said:

A motion "to ratify the actions taken by the president in contracting for repair of the pipe, and in contracting for the cleaning of the carpet, and the actions of the treasurer in paying the bills for such services" can, of course, be divided.

A motion to ratify the act taken by the board when it adopted the motion that it adopted cannot be divided.

This is what I have been saying all along.

Well then, can the assembly adopt the motion to "ratify the board's action to repair the pipe?" 

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On 3/13/2022 at 9:57 AM, J. J. said:

Well then, can the assembly adopt the motion to "ratify the board's action to repair the pipe?" 

No, because that was not the action that the board took.

How many times must this be said.  You may disagree with it, which is fine by me, but I think I should not have to keep repeating myself.

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On 3/13/2022 at 10:06 AM, Dan Honemann said:

No, because that was not the action that the board took.

How many times must this be said.  You may disagree with it, which is fine by me, but I think I should not have to keep repeating myself.

Okay, why would the board's adoption of a main motion, be the action of the board?  The board took additional action, by means of the main motion, but they also took the action to repair the pipe. 

Edited by J. J.
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On 3/13/2022 at 8:12 AM, J. J. said:

Okay, why would the board's adoption of a main motion, be the action of the board?  The board to additional action, by means of the main motion, but they also took the action to repair the pipes. 

The board's action was to adopt the motion. The actual repair was undertaken by one or more individuals in compliance with the motion. While I am one of those who think the the motion to ratify the motion should be divisible, I don't think it is helpful to confuse the action of adopting the motion with the action of effectuating the repair and cleaning.

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On 3/13/2022 at 10:23 AM, Weldon Merritt said:

The board's action was to adopt the motion. The actual repair was undertaken by one or more individuals in compliance with the motion. While I am one of those who think the the motion to ratify the motion should be divisible, I don't think it is helpful to confuse the action of adopting the motion with the action of effectuating the repair and cleaning.

If you would like a firmer distinction, you could use a motion "to ratify the board's action to authorize the repair of the pipe."

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On 3/13/2022 at 9:12 AM, J. J. said:

Okay, why would the board's adoption of a main motion, be the action of the board?  The board took additional action, by means of the main motion, but they also took the action to repair the pipe. 

 

On 3/13/2022 at 9:29 AM, J. J. said:

If you would like a firmer distinction, you could use a motion "to ratify the board's action to authorize the repair of the pipe."

As I understand the facts in the hypothetical, the board (or strictly speaking, individual members of the board at a board meeting which lacked a quorum) adopted a main motion "to repair the damaged pipe and have the water-stained carpet cleaned." This is the only action by the board I am aware of. What other action by the board are you referring to?

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On 3/13/2022 at 1:21 PM, Josh Martin said:

 

As I understand the facts in the hypothetical, the board (or strictly speaking, individual members of the board at a board meeting which lacked a quorum) adopted a main motion "to repair the damaged pipe and have the water-stained carpet cleaned." This is the only action by the board I am aware of. What other action by the board are you referring to?

The board took the action of repairing the pipe and cleaning the carpet.  I draw a distinction between the action and the motion.

The action can be the members physically repairing the pipe after buying the materials, calling a plumber, renting the equipment to cleaning the carpet or having a professional cleaner come in to clean the carpet. 

Edited by J. J.
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On 3/12/2022 at 5:32 PM, J. J. said:

Can some action that was not done by a motion be ratified?  

Certainly!  That might very well be the reason why ratification was later necessary if,  rather than waiting for a chance to adopt a motion, someone did something, e.g., calling a plumber to fix that pipe, without approval from anyone.

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