Presiding Officer - Can he/she vote if not called out specifically in bylaws

[Eva S]

I have read through many postings and it still seems a little muddy. But the way I see it, unless an organization specifically states in their bylaws that the presiding officer may vote, then only in certain cases as stated in 44:12 may the presiding officer vote. This would be by ballot, and whenever the vote affects the outcome (either to create or break a tie).

If the presiding votes and then there's a tie, what happens??? He can't vote twice. The whole point is defeated, right?

So,, in fact, he cannot vote at all except in matters where there is a vote by ballot or the vote would be affected by this vote. Correct? With the exception being if the bylaws state specifically that the presiding officer may vote. 

We have bylaws that say ... "Each member shall be entitled to one vote on each matter."

Does this include officers, I guess so. Presiding Officer...? I thought the Chairman was a unique position, almost someone that was supposed to be neutral. This is how it was explained to me when I chaired meetings and I refrained from all but one vote, breaking a tie. 

1. Can the Presiding Officer vote on all matters with the above bylaw statement? (this seems it would negate any use of the vote that would affect an outcome, since NO ONE is allowed 2 votes)

or

2. Can the Presiding Officer vote only on matters as state in 44:12 of RR? The bylaws would need to state the Presiding Officer specifically for this to be be superseded. 

I would say #2. 

 Thank you

[Joshua Katz]

On 9/28/2022 at 6:19 PM, Eva S said:

If the presiding votes and then there's a tie, what happens??? He can't vote twice. The whole point is defeated, right?

 

Yes, the motion does not carry.

 

On 9/28/2022 at 6:19 PM, Eva S said:

1. Can the Presiding Officer vote on all matters with the above bylaw statement? (this seems it would negate any use of the vote that would affect an outcome, since NO ONE is allowed 2 votes)

 

It is certainly true that, in the event the presiding officer votes with the others, he may not vote again afterwards. 

But to your question:

On 9/28/2022 at 6:19 PM, Eva S said:

We have bylaws that say ... "Each member shall be entitled to one vote on each matter."

 

I do not think this modifies the rule in RONR regarding the vote of the presiding officer. Per RONR, the presiding officer (if a member) does not lose the right to vote, but rather does not exercise that right except in certain circumstances. So a rule reiterating the right to vote, here called entitlement, does not, in my opinion, change the fact that the presiding officer should not exercise that right, in general.

But keep in mind that bylaw interpretation is a matter for your organization. My opinion is not relevant, and your organization could decide otherwise.

Also note, in the event it is applicable, that the rules for the vote of a presiding officer are different in small boards and committees.

[Atul Kapur]

On 9/28/2022 at 7:19 PM, Eva S said:

If the presiding votes and then there's a tie, what happens??? He can't vote twice. The whole point is defeated, right?

The president can vote to create a tie, which would mean that the motion is the defeated.

You appear to believe that a tie is a "deadlock" that needs to be resolved. A tie is a clear result: it is not a majority, so the motion is defeated. 

A specific example: if the vote is 50-49, then the president can vote in the negative. This changes the outcome from "adopt the motion" (on a 50-49 vote) to "defeat the motion" (on a 50-50 vote)

[Gary Novosielski]

On 9/28/2022 at 7:19 PM, Eva S said:

I have read through many postings and it still seems a little muddy. But the way I see it, unless an organization specifically states in their bylaws that the presiding officer may vote, then only in certain cases as stated in 44:12 may the presiding officer vote. This would be by ballot, and whenever the vote affects the outcome (either to create or break a tie).

If the presiding votes and then there's a tie, what happens??? He can't vote twice. The whole point is defeated, right?

So,, in fact, he cannot vote at all except in matters where there is a vote by ballot or the vote would be affected by this vote. Correct? With the exception being if the bylaws state specifically that the presiding officer may vote. 

We have bylaws that say ... "Each member shall be entitled to one vote on each matter."

Does this include officers, I guess so. Presiding Officer...? I thought the Chairman was a unique position, almost someone that was supposed to be neutral. This is how it was explained to me when I chaired meetings and I refrained from all but one vote, breaking a tie. 

1. Can the Presiding Officer vote on all matters with the above bylaw statement? (this seems it would negate any use of the vote that would affect an outcome, since NO ONE is allowed 2 votes)

or

2. Can the Presiding Officer vote only on matters as state in 44:12 of RR? The bylaws would need to state the Presiding Officer specifically for this to be be superseded. 

I would say #2. 

 Thank you

You seem to be overthinking this.  The rule in 44:14 helps the presiding officer to preserve the appearance of impartiality, especially in larger assemblies (small groups of less than about a dozen can choose to use Small Board Rules, which allow full participation by the presiding officer).

By following this rule, the presiding officer loses nothing, and gains the traditional impartiality that inspired this rule.    Look at it this way, the only way the chair could violate the rule would be to vote when that one vote makes no difference.  So what exactly is gained by this? 

And the only way the chair could possibly be hurt by the rule would be if it prevented voting when that one vote could have made the difference--but the rule specifically allows the chair to vote in any case such as this.  Again, there can't be a problem, and the chair is never prevented from voting whenever it matters.  Nothing is ever lost.

Even if the chair could violate the rule with impunity, I fail to see any benefit in doing so.  If you think you have found a case, I'd love to help you see how that's not so.

[Josh Martin]

On 9/28/2022 at 5:19 PM, Eva S said:

I have read through many postings and it still seems a little muddy. But the way I see it, unless an organization specifically states in their bylaws that the presiding officer may vote, then only in certain cases as stated in 44:12 may the presiding officer vote. This would be by ballot, and whenever the vote affects the outcome (either to create or break a tie).

This is slightly too strong of a statement. The presiding officer, if a member, always has the right to vote, however, the presiding officer should refrain from doing so except in the case of a ballot vote or when their vote would affect the outcome. This is not necessarily limited to making or breaking a tie. For instance, if a 2/3 vote is required, the presiding officer could vote if the vote was exactly 2/3 (or one vote shy of 2/3).

It should also be noted that under the rules used for committees and small boards, the presiding officer is free to vote in any event.

On 9/28/2022 at 5:19 PM, Eva S said:

If the presiding votes and then there's a tie, what happens??? He can't vote twice. The whole point is defeated, right?

The motion is defeated.

On 9/28/2022 at 5:19 PM, Eva S said:

So,, in fact, he cannot vote at all except in matters where there is a vote by ballot or the vote would be affected by this vote. Correct? With the exception being if the bylaws state specifically that the presiding officer may vote. 

We have bylaws that say ... "Each member shall be entitled to one vote on each matter."

Does this include officers, I guess so. Presiding Officer...? I thought the Chairman was a unique position, almost someone that was supposed to be neutral. This is how it was explained to me when I chaired meetings and I refrained from all but one vote, breaking a tie. 

I do not think there is any conflict between this rule and the rules on this matter in RONR. It is always the case that the presiding officer (if a member) has the right to vote, but he refrains from exercising that right except in certain circumstances. If the presiding officer insisted on voting on other circumstances, he could not be prevented from doing so, but this could be a reason to find a new presiding officer.

On 9/28/2022 at 5:19 PM, Eva S said:

1. Can the Presiding Officer vote on all matters with the above bylaw statement? (this seems it would negate any use of the vote that would affect an outcome, since NO ONE is allowed 2 votes)

or

2. Can the Presiding Officer vote only on matters as state in 44:12 of RR? The bylaws would need to state the Presiding Officer specifically for this to be be superseded. 

It is a bit more complicated (see above), but I think #2 is closer to the truth. The rule in question, in my view, does not conflict with or supersede the rules in RONR on this matter.