Opening a topic for discussion during an "informational-only" meeting?

[Dougmeister]

A local non-profit (church) says in its constitution that it follows Robert's Rules. However, like most places, they do not really follow them.

If the annual business meeting does not have a time for questions, does that explicitly 'break' Robert's Rules of Order?

I.e., if they simply present the budget and do not open the floor for questions, comments, etc.

[Rob Elsman]

If the church "[does] not really follow them", I don't think it makes any difference whether there is a "break" or not.

[Dougmeister]

On 1/16/2023 at 9:55 AM, Rob Elsman said:

If the church "[does] not really follow them", I don't think it makes any difference whether there is a "break" or not.

Fair point. But since they make a point of saying that in their constitution, I feel justified in questioning them if they do not.

So does "Robert's Rules" require that there be a time for questions, etc.?

[Bruce Lages]

In most cases yes, although it is not considered as a specified 'time for questions' within the standard order of business. All main motions, and many but not all secondary motions are debatable. The chair must allow for such debate whenever a debatable motion is introduced. Only the assembly itself, by a 2/3 vote to suspend the rules, can dispense with debate on a debatable motion or motions.

Some organizations also have a 'good of the order' or 'open forum' section of their meetings that is set aside for discussion and/or questions that is separate from the conduct of business (RONR, 12th ed. 41:34), but from your example that doesn't seem to be what you're referring to.

[Phil D]

A Request for Information can be raised even when another has the floor if it requires immediate attention, and does not require a second.

Absent a provision of the bylaws or relevant procedural law to the contrary, members have an individual right to debate. So if the presentation of the budget amounts to a presentation of a main motion, a member of the assembly should be able to take the floor and debate the proposal.

[George Mervosh]

Maybe Dougmeister can add some facts here.  My reading of the title along with the original post led me to believe no motion will be made and no vote will be conducted. So perhaps he can explain who is doing this presentation, why, and what happens next after the presentation has concluded.  Will there be a motion and vote at a subsequent meeting?  

[Richard Brown]

On 1/16/2023 at 7:54 AM, Dougmeister said:

If the annual business meeting does not have a time for questions, does that explicitly 'break' Robert's Rules of Order?

I.e., if they simply present the budget and do not open the floor for questions, comments, etc.

Does the adoption of the budget actually get voted on at some point?

During debate on any motion, including a motion to adopt a budget, members have the right to ask questions.  The chair does not have to specifically "open the floor for questions", but rather during debate members have the right, per the provisions in 33:6-10 of RONR (12th ed.) to ask questions, which should be directed to the chair or through the chair to another member, such as the treasurer.   See sections 33:6 - 33:10 for details and examples.

Edited to add:  My answer is based on the assumption that this is taking place at a regular business meeting at which a motion to adopt the budget is pending.  If that is not the case and this meeting is one being held purely as an "informational meeting" to present information about the budget, that changes things and i don't know that RONR is completely applicable or that it requires that questions be permitted.  It seems logical that questions would be permitted at such a meeting, but I'm not sure that RONR actually requires it.

Edited January 16, 2023 at 07:20 PM by Richard Brown
Added last paragraph

[Dougmeister]

On 1/16/2023 at 12:26 PM, George Mervosh said:

Maybe Dougmeister can add some facts here.  My reading of the title along with the original post led me to believe no motion will be made and no vote will be conducted. So perhaps he can explain who is doing this presentation, why, and what happens next after the presentation has concluded.  Will there be a motion and vote at a subsequent meeting?  

Strangely enough, the congregational vote has already happened. I know it sounds dumb; they say itvs always been done that way and no one thought about it at the time. 

The head of the board (pastor) will do the presentation... Possibly done other leaders. I expect someone to "motion" that the meeting be adjourned, seconded, at is the end of it as far as they are concerned. 

I expect no subsequent meeting until next January unless we petition for a special business meeting. 

[Phil D]

That is an interesting order of operations. 
 

RONR focuses on the rules for the decisionmaking meetings of deliberative assemblies. A purely informational meeting reporting the outcome of another meeting is not really covered in RONR any more than the conduct of a movie night would be. So in that case it’s not clear to me that anyone is required to open the floor for questions in this info session. 

[Josh Martin]

On 1/16/2023 at 7:54 AM, Dougmeister said:

If the annual business meeting does not have a time for questions, does that explicitly 'break' Robert's Rules of Order?

I.e., if they simply present the budget and do not open the floor for questions, comments, etc.

RONR does not require that an explicit period be provided for questions. Members are free, however, to ask questions concerning the pending business, and members are free to speak in debate when a debatable motion is pending. Debate is not in order when a motion is not pending.

Based upon the facts presented, it would appear the presentation in question was for information only. So it would seem to me that questions are in order, but not comments.

On 1/16/2023 at 12:54 PM, Dougmeister said:

Strangely enough, the congregational vote has already happened. I know it sounds dumb; they say itvs always been done that way and no one thought about it at the time. 

The head of the board (pastor) will do the presentation... Possibly done other leaders. I expect someone to "motion" that the meeting be adjourned, seconded, at is the end of it as far as they are concerned. 

I expect no subsequent meeting until next January unless we petition for a special business meeting. 

It's not entirely clear to me from the facts presented why there is a presentation (or even a meeting) at all, since the business in question has already been completed.

Notwithstanding this, it would seem to me that questions are in order, but not comments.

On 1/16/2023 at 1:02 PM, Phil D said:

RONR focuses on the rules for the decisionmaking meetings of deliberative assemblies. A purely informational meeting reporting the outcome of another meeting is not really covered in RONR any more than the conduct of a movie night would be. So in that case it’s not clear to me that anyone is required to open the floor for questions in this info session. 

Certainly if the meeting in question is, in fact, not a "meeting" in the parliamentary sense, then the rules of RONR are not applicable, but it's not clear to me that is the case. It may well be that this is a true "business" meeting, however, generally no business is conducted (even although it theoretically could be). If that is the case, it would seem to me that a Request for Information concerning the report would be in order.

Edited January 16, 2023 at 07:13 PM by Josh Martin

[Richard Brown]

 

On 1/16/2023 at 1:02 PM, Phil D said:

RONR focuses on the rules for the decisionmaking meetings of deliberative assemblies. A purely informational meeting reporting the outcome of another meeting is not really covered in RONR any more than the conduct of a movie night would be. So in that case it’s not clear to me that anyone is required to open the floor for questions in this info session. 

I just realized that the OP is talking about an "Informational meeting" .... a meeting held for information only.  That changes things. Although it seems natural that questions would be permitted at an "informational only" meeting, I'm not at all convinced that the rules in RONR are fully applicable or that the members in attendance at such a meeting actually have the right to ask questions.  My previous answer was based on my apparently erroneous assumption that this was an ordinary business meeting.

I'm interested in how our colleagues look at this situation.

[Dougmeister]

If it helps in understanding this confusing situation, the summary is:

* a small but significant (and growing) number of people want to discuss the budget 

* leadership does not want to discuss it with all members (there is more to this, but for purposes of clarity and succinctness, I'm simplifying) 

* We want to discuss it in the least disruptive way yet also have the highest percentage of members be present

I hope that helps somewhat. 

[Gary Novosielski]

I am having a hard time understanding how an Annual Business Meeting does not allow for the conduct of business.  It seems to me than an Information Only Business meeting is an oxymoron. And if it were information only, the budget could not be approved at that meeting.  Just because the leadership says that no debate will be allowed, this pronouncement should crumble before you can finish saying "Point of Order".  And when one has the floor, or often when one does not, Requests for Information are in order.

I also do not understand how the congregation could have already voted on a budget that has not yet been moved.

[Rob Elsman]

Well, anything goes in this group, since it "... really do[es] not follow [the rules]." There is no point trying to make a silver purse out of a sow's ear.

[Richard Brown]

@Dougmeister, we seem to be missing or misunderstanding something here. Please tell us when, how, and by whom (what body) the budget was actually adopted (or how it usually gets adopted).  Does the membership not vote on approving or adopting the budget? if the membership doesn’t do it, who does? Is it actually adopted by the board of deacons or some other group?

[Dougmeister]

@Richard Brown, the budget is submitted by the finance committee, approved by elder board (Dec 2022) , and either accepted or rejected by congregational majority vote (1st week of Jan, 2023)

Part of the confusion is that, for unexplained reasons (and unfortunately, no one questioned it at the time, myself included), the budget was "presented" as handouts (Dec 2022) then voted on by ballot a few weeks later (1st week of Jan, 2023), but still voted upon BEFORE the annual business meeting (next Sunday). 

I realize that it's screwed up, and I am drafting proposed changes to make the sequence more logical. However, that leaves me where I am. 

Does that help clear things up at all? 

[Josh Martin]

On 1/16/2023 at 1:36 PM, Dougmeister said:

If it helps in understanding this confusing situation, the summary is:

* a small but significant (and growing) number of people want to discuss the budget 

* leadership does not want to discuss it with all members (there is more to this, but for purposes of clarity and succinctness, I'm simplifying) 

* We want to discuss it in the least disruptive way yet also have the highest percentage of members be present

I hope that helps somewhat. 

On 1/16/2023 at 5:28 PM, Dougmeister said:

Part of the confusion is that, for unexplained reasons (and unfortunately, no one questioned it at the time, myself included), the budget was "presented" as handouts (Dec 2022) then voted on by ballot a few weeks later (1st week of Jan, 2023), but still voted upon BEFORE the annual business meeting (next Sunday). 

These additional facts appear to clarify that this meeting will, in fact, be a business meeting of the membership. As a result, it would seem to me that when the informational report for the budget is given, questions pertaining to the report are in order as Requests for Information. The budget is not, however, actually pending for adoption (because it has already been adopted is pending for adoption). As a result, discussion of the budget is not in order. Discussion is not in order when a report for information only is pending.

I suppose the assembly is free to adopt a motion, by majority vote, adding to the agenda a general open discussion pertaining to the budget, although the point of doing so is not entirely clear to me. It would also be possible to suspend the rules so that the budget could be discussed during the report, but that would take a 2/3 vote.

As you suggest, in the long run the prudent course of action is to ensure that the discussion occurs prior to the vote.

Edited January 17, 2023 at 12:59 PM by Josh Martin

[Gary Novosielski]

On 1/16/2023 at 6:28 PM, Dougmeister said:

@Richard Brown, the budget is submitted by the finance committee, approved by elder board (Dec 2022) , and either accepted or rejected by congregational majority vote (1st week of Jan, 2023)

Part of the confusion is that, for unexplained reasons (and unfortunately, no one questioned it at the time, myself included), the budget was "presented" as handouts (Dec 2022) then voted on by ballot a few weeks later (1st week of Jan, 2023), but still voted upon BEFORE the annual business meeting (next Sunday). 

I realize that it's screwed up, and I am drafting proposed changes to make the sequence more logical. However, that leaves me where I am. 

Does that help clear things up at all? 

Yes, except it should not require drafting any changes, but merely sticking to RONR and the bylaws.  

[Dougmeister]

On 1/16/2023 at 7:10 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Yes, except it should not require drafting any changes, but merely sticking to RONR and the bylaws.  

Sorry. I meant changes to the current constitution to specify that the business meeting occur before the vote. 

[Dougmeister]

On 1/16/2023 at 4:58 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

...Just because the leadership says that no debate will be allowed, this pronouncement should crumble before you can finish saying "Point of Order".  And when one has the floor, or often when one does not, Requests for Information are in order.

This goes to the heart of my original question.

Let's say they don't ask for questions. So I stand up. They either A) do not "recognize" me or say 'no' to my request for information.

According to RONR, can I say "Point of Order" and call attention to the fact that they are not following their own "rules" as delineated by our organization's constitution?

[Gary Novosielski]

Yes.  Well, a request for information is only a request, so failing to provide the information may not be a violation.  But failing to allow any questions would be.  And failing to allow debate would be.

What complicates matters is the fact that you've apparently already approved the budget, why, I don't know.  So what exactly would be accomplished by debate is not clear.

On 1/16/2023 at 9:59 PM, Dougmeister said:

Sorry. I meant changes to the current constitution to specify that the business meeting occur before the vote. 

Yes, but I'd bet that's already the case, according to the rules in RONR.  Are you saying that there's something in your constitution that authorizes the current backwards procedure?  Unless there's some crazy custom rule of yours, the purpose of an Annual General Meeting of the membership in any organization is to cover business such as reports of officers, approval of budgets, election of board members, and such.  

When is your board up for election?

[Dougmeister]

Gary, they stagger terms for board members so only a few are up for election every year. 

And the constitution only specifies that the annual business meeting takes place in January; it does not specify that us when the vote should take place. (Again, I know, kind of dumb, but it doesn't *say* you can't do something stupid like vote 2 weeks before the annual meeting based strictly on a handout of 4 or 5 pages. 

 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 1/16/2023 at 11:33 PM, Dougmeister said:

Gary, they stagger terms for board members so only a few are up for election every year. 

And the constitution only specifies that the annual business meeting takes place in January; it does not specify that us when the vote should take place. (Again, I know, kind of dumb, but it doesn't *say* you can't do something stupid like vote 2 weeks before the annual meeting based strictly on a handout of 4 or 5 pages. 

 

It's a general parliamentary principle that decisions take place as a result of motions made and voted upon at meetings.  So if the election does not take place at the Annual Meeting, when does it actually occur? 

Do your bylaws actually authorize absentee mail ballots for the budget, or business in general?  And how could you be voting on a budget if no motion to adopt it was ever moved at a membership meeting (not a board meeting, a real membership meeting).  Presumably it's the membership who has to approve the budget.

It sounds very much like your board believes that they are in charge of things, rather than being a subordinate body to the general membership.  You may want to consider contacting a professional parliamentarian in your area, since this is shaping up to be a restaurant-sized can of worms.

[Atul Kapur]

On 1/16/2023 at 3:56 PM, Josh Martin said:

The budget is not, however, actually pending for adoption (because it is pending for adoption).

Sounds like you've joined @Dougmeister's church. 😄

[Atul Kapur]

On 1/16/2023 at 8:33 PM, Dougmeister said:

it doesn't *say* you can't do something stupid like vote 2 weeks before the annual meeting

Maybe not, but RONR does say , unless you have specific rules that say otherwise.