Opening a topic for discussion during an "informational-only" meeting?

[Dougmeister]

Thank you all for all of the comments, insights, and advice.

After digesting all of this information, it seems that the steps to take are:

1) Stand up when the main speaker has finished speaking (but before the meeting has ended, obviously)

2) Wait to be "recognized"

3) Say "Request for Information" and state the question regarding the budget (that has already been voted upon but some information had not been dispersed to most people)

4) If they refuse to allow the question or allow debate, then we say "Point of Order" and remind them that Robert's Rules are supposed to be in effect

And lastly:

5) If they claim they are running out of time, what are our options? They can call another business meeting at any time, but we can only request one if 10% of the membership signs a petition (which should not be a problem, but would be difficult to get by this Sunday).

[Atul Kapur]

You stand up and say, "Request for Information" before being recognized. Once you're recognized, then you can ask your question.

[Dougmeister]

On 1/17/2023 at 7:40 AM, Atul Kapur said:

You stand up and say, "Request for Information" before being recognized. Once you're recognized, then you can ask your question.

Thank you, Atul. Your help is deeply appreciated.

Any thoughts as to #4 or #5? Or anyone else? I can't wait to read the responses... I feel that I am getting close to an answer for my question.

[Josh Martin]

On 1/16/2023 at 8:59 PM, Dougmeister said:

Sorry. I meant changes to the current constitution to specify that the business meeting occur before the vote. 

That's how things normally work. There shouldn't be a need to specify it.

On 1/16/2023 at 10:33 PM, Dougmeister said:

And the constitution only specifies that the annual business meeting takes place in January; it does not specify that us when the vote should take place. (Again, I know, kind of dumb, but it doesn't *say* you can't do something stupid like vote 2 weeks before the annual meeting based strictly on a handout of 4 or 5 pages. 

There is no need for the constitution to say this can't be done. Voting takes place at a meeting unless the constitution provides otherwise.

But yes, I suppose if it is desired to be crystal clear on this matter, the constitution could be amended to provide that the budget shall be adopted at the annual meeting.

On 1/16/2023 at 10:09 PM, Dougmeister said:

So I stand up. They either A) do not "recognize" me or say 'no' to my request for information.

According to RONR, can I say "Point of Order" and call attention to the fact that they are not following their own "rules" as delineated by our organization's constitution?

Yes.

On 1/17/2023 at 6:28 AM, Dougmeister said:

After digesting all of this information, it seems that the steps to take are:

1) Stand up when the main speaker has finished speaking (but before the meeting has ended, obviously)

2) Wait to be "recognized"

3) Say "Request for Information" and state the question regarding the budget (that has already been voted upon but some information had not been dispersed to most people)

4) If they refuse to allow the question or allow debate, then we say "Point of Order" and remind them that Robert's Rules are supposed to be in effect

Generally, this is all correct, but as I have previously noted, the chair should not allow debate in the circumstance described. When a report is presented for information only, there is nothing to debate. So it would not be proper to raise a Point of Order on the grounds that the chair is not permitting debate. But it would be proper to raise a Point of Order on the basis that the chair is refusing to admit a Request for Information.

If the assembly wishes, it is free to adopt a motion ordering an open discussion period regarding the budget. To do so during the presentation of the report would be a suspension of the rules, which requires a 2/3 vote. To do so following the completion of the report would require only a majority vote. It is still not clear to me, however, what purpose is served by "debating" something which has already been adopted, unless the intent is to follow up with a motion to Rescind or Amend the budget.

On 1/17/2023 at 6:28 AM, Dougmeister said:

5) If they claim they are running out of time, what are our options? They can call another business meeting at any time, but we can only request one if 10% of the membership signs a petition (which should not be a problem, but would be difficult to get by this Sunday).

 I'm not clear on what basis it is claimed they are "running out of time." The meeting is not adjourned until it has completed its business or until the assembly votes to adjourn, by majority vote. So generally, it would seem to me the proper course of action is simply to continue meeting, notwithstanding the board members' claims.

Edited January 17, 2023 at 01:15 PM by Josh Martin

[Dougmeister]

On 1/17/2023 at 8:14 AM, Josh Martin said:

(content deleted just to address specific questions from this post)

It is still not clear to me, however, what purpose is served by "debating" something which has already been adopted.

I'm not clear on what basis it is claimed they are "running out of time." The meeting is not adjourned until it has completed its business or until the assembly votes to adjourn, by majority vote. So generally, it would seem to me the proper course of action is simply to continue meeting, notwithstanding the board members' claims.

The purpose is two-fold:

1) Get the information "out there". They withheld specific information that would have affected the vote.

2) Possibly nullify the original vote (?) so that the budget can be voted upon again but with as many members as possible having all of the information from #1

Regarding the "running out of time" terminology:

They scheduled the business meeting 45 minutes before another meeting (the main service) so not only will it be impossible to extend the Annual Business Meeting beyond 45 minutes in length, but they may very well try to wrap things up early to allow time for people to set up, etc. for the service.

I could contact them and ask that the meeting time be moved, but that will likely have strong pushback. We only found out the time about a week or two ago and we've been busy trying to prepare a strategy.

[Josh Martin]

On 1/17/2023 at 7:28 AM, Dougmeister said:

2) Possibly nullify the original vote (?) so that the budget can be voted upon again but with as many members as possible having all of the information from #1

I would not describe this as "nullifying" the original vote, but a motion to Rescind is in order. The motion to Rescind requires a 2/3 vote, a vote of a majority of the entire membership, or a majority vote with previous notice for adoption. If the motion to Rescind is made and seconded, debate will then be in order, and the debate could extend to the merits of the budget. If it is desired to truly have a debate on this matter, this would seem to be the most logical option, since then there will actually be a course of action to debate.

On 1/17/2023 at 7:28 AM, Dougmeister said:

They scheduled the business meeting 45 minutes before another meeting (the main service) so not only will it be impossible to extend the Annual Business Meeting beyond 45 minutes in length, but they may very well try to wrap things up early to allow time for people to set up, etc. for the service.

I could contact them and ask that the meeting time be moved, but that will likely have strong pushback. We only found out the time about a week or two ago and we've been busy trying to prepare a strategy.

I am not entirely certain I agree that it is "impossible" to extend the business meeting, but certainly the assembly may not wish to cause conflicts with the main service.

In any event, the proper course of action if the assembly wishes to establish another meeting regarding this matter is the motion to Fix the Time to Which to Adjourn, which is discussed in RONR (12th ed.) Section 22. A member would rise and say something like this:

"MEMBER A (obtaining the floor): Madam President, I believe the pending resolution will require longer discussion than we have time for this evening. I move that when the meeting adjourns, it adjourn to meet here next Tuesday at 8:15 P.M. (Second.)" RONR (12th ed.) 22:14

I would note the date and time listed is simply an example. The assembly may choose whatever date and time it deems appropriate, including a later time on the same date. For example, the meeting could be adjourned until after the main service (perhaps with a bit of a buffer, to allow set up time or whatever).

The motion to Fix the Time to Which to Adjourn requires a majority vote for its adoption. If adopted, an "adjourned meeting," which is effectively a continuation of the present meeting, is established for the specified date, time, and place. This is separate from the concept of a "special meeting" and does not require the procedures for calling a special meeting.

Edited January 17, 2023 at 01:46 PM by Josh Martin

[Gary Novosielski]

On 1/17/2023 at 7:28 AM, Dougmeister said:

Thank you all for all of the comments, insights, and advice.

After digesting all of this information, it seems that the steps to take are:

1) Stand up when the main speaker has finished speaking (but before the meeting has ended, obviously)

2) Wait to be "recognized"

3) Say "Request for Information" and state the question regarding the budget (that has already been voted upon but some information had not been dispersed to most people)

4) If they refuse to allow the question or allow debate, then we say "Point of Order" and remind them that Robert's Rules are supposed to be in effect

And lastly:

5) If they claim they are running out of time, what are our options? They can call another business meeting at any time, but we can only request one if 10% of the membership signs a petition (which should not be a problem, but would be difficult to get by this Sunday).

Who are "they"?  Do you have more than one presiding officer?   

If "they" are the board, then remind them that this is not a board meeting, it is a membership meeting and since the board is not in session then for all practical purposes they do not, for the time being, exist.  With the possible exception of the President and Secretary, board members have no special status during membership meetings.

And lastly:

Who do "they" think controls when the meeting adjourns?  If it's someone other than the members themselves, where do they think they get this power?  Not from RONR.  Sure, anyone can move to adjourn, but it takes a majority vote to adopt that motion.

[Dougmeister]

On 1/17/2023 at 12:03 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Who are "they"?  Do you have more than one presiding officer?   

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Who do "they" think controls when the meeting adjourns?  If it's someone other than the members themselves, where do they think they get this power?  Not from RONR.  Sure, anyone can move to adjourn, but it takes a majority vote to adopt that motion.

"They" is just the presiding officer, the lead pastor in this case. He may have other leaders present their portion of the budget, but he is "leading" the meeting. Sorry.

[Dougmeister]

@Josh Martin, sorry to draw this out even longer, but, please help me clarify something here.

Do you (and others) on this forum believe that the best course of action to pursue is to:

1) Use "Request for Information" in order to enlighten the rest of the membership concerning the facts which we have learned that have not been made available to everyone

Or

2) Make a "Motion to Rescind" the already-approved budget due to the fact that most of the membership were not aware of these facts?

[Josh Martin]

On 1/19/2023 at 4:40 AM, Dougmeister said:

@Josh Martin, sorry to draw this out even longer, but, please help me clarify something here.

Do you (and others) on this forum believe that the best course of action to pursue is to:

1) Use "Request for Information" in order to enlighten the rest of the membership concerning the facts which we have learned that have not been made available to everyone

Or

2) Make a "Motion to Rescind" the already-approved budget due to the fact that most of the membership were not aware of these facts?

It depends on what your ultimate goal is. If your goal is simply to ask questions, then Request for Information is the appropriate tool. If your goal is, in fact, to rescind the budget, then a motion to Rescind is the appropriate tool. I would also particularly recommend the motion to Rescind if you intend to have a discussion or debate on the budget rather than simply asking questions, so it is clear exactly what course of action is being debated.

I would also note that these are not mutually exclusive. It would be possible to, for instance, ask a few clarifying questions to set the stage and then follow up with the motion to Rescind. It is also in order to ask Requests for Information concerning the budget while the motion to Rescind is being debated.