Abstaining on a vote. How to count.

[Atul Kapur]

On 5/12/2024 at 12:55 AM, Guest Rick said:

Does the threshold count by the number of senators that showed up to vote, or does the threshold count how many senators are there in total.

Neither. The default rule under RONR is that the threshold to adopt a motion is a majority (more than half) of the total votes cast (i.e. more voting Yes than No. Abstentions are ignored).

Your organization's rules may change the default and require

• a majority of senators present (e.g. if 20 are present, that's at least 11 Yes votes — if all 24 are present, that's 13), or
• a majority of all senators (e.g. if all 24 positions are filled, that's at least 13 Yes votes — if there are 2 vacancies and only 22 senators, that's 12), or
• a majority of all senate positions (you tell us there are 24 positions, so that's fixed at at least 13 Yes votes )

If your rules do not explicitly change the default, then the default applies.

[Guest Rick]

On 5/12/2024 at 2:26 PM, Atul Kapur said:

Your organization's rules may change the default and require

• a majority of senators present (e.g. if 20 are present, that's at least 11 Yes votes — if all 24 are present, that's 13), or
• a majority of all senators (e.g. if all 24 positions are filled, that's at least 13 Yes votes — if there are 2 vacancies and only 22 senators, that's 12), or

What is the difference between a majority of senators present and a majority of all senators?

[Guest Rick]

Yes we do use difference rules to vote.
Our senate is made up of 24 senators.
For the threshold, if we want to pass a resolution or motion it needs more than half to pass. (20 are voting, 11 "yes votes" is needed to pass)
But when we vote for the Senate President, there must be at least 13 votes to one candidate in order for the person to be elected. Meaning that if only 11 senators show up to vote, there will not be a winner even if they all agreed who shall be it.

For abstentions we actually count it differently. In our system voting abstain gives the same effect as voting no. In the image, there are 24 senators but 4 did not show up to vote. With 20 senators voting, 11 is needed for a majority. 8 senators voted in favor, 6 against, 6 abstained. Since we do not have the 11 "yes votes" the motion is denied.
It's very interesting to see how other systems would work.

If this resolution was in your local parliament, would the resolution have passed?

[Dan Honemann]

On 5/12/2024 at 8:47 AM, Guest Rick said:

What is the difference between a majority of senators present and a majority of all senators?

I suspect that the number of members who are absent has something to do with it.

[Atul Kapur]

On 5/12/2024 at 8:47 AM, Guest Rick said:

What is the difference between a majority of senators present and a majority of all senators?

"Senators present" means those senators who are present at that particular meeting. 
"All senators" means all those people who currently hold the office of senator. It is apparently 24 if there no vacancies.

On 5/12/2024 at 9:01 AM, Guest Rick said:

For the threshold, if we want to pass a resolution or motion it needs more than half to pass. (20 are voting, 11 "yes votes" is needed to pass)

....

For abstentions we actually count it differently. In our system voting abstain gives the same effect as voting no. In the image, there are 24 senators but 4 did not show up to vote. With 20 senators voting, 11 is needed for a majority. 8 senators voted in favor, 6 against, 6 abstained. Since we do not have the 11 "yes votes" the motion is denied.

That is a requirement for a majority of all senators present (11 is a majority of the 20 senators present). If you share the exact language in your bylaws, it would help to confirm that this is actually what your rules say.
 

On 5/12/2024 at 9:01 AM, Guest Rick said:

With 20 senators voting, 11 is needed for a majority. 8 senators voted in favor, 6 against, 6 abstained.

According to RONR, only 14 senators voted (abstentions are ignored). This is the difference between what you are describing and RONR. Your definition of "voting" is the discrepancy. 

 

On 5/12/2024 at 9:01 AM, Guest Rick said:

If this resolution was in your local parliament, would the resolution have passed?

If this was an organization operating under RONR, it would have passed 8-6. 

[Josh Martin]

On 5/12/2024 at 7:47 AM, Guest Rick said:

What is the difference between a majority of senators present and a majority of all senators?

The former includes a majority only of the senators who are present, and the latter includes a majority of all senators (whether present or absent).

I must also reiterate that, except to the extent the organization's rules provide otherwise, the default threshold for adoption is neither of these, and is instead a majority of the senators present and voting.

On 5/12/2024 at 8:01 AM, Guest Rick said:

Yes we do use difference rules to vote.

Does your organization use Robert's Rules of Order as its parliamentary authority?

On 5/12/2024 at 8:01 AM, Guest Rick said:

For the threshold, if we want to pass a resolution or motion it needs more than half to pass. (20 are voting, 11 "yes votes" is needed to pass)
But when we vote for the Senate President, there must be at least 13 votes to one candidate in order for the person to be elected. Meaning that if only 11 senators show up to vote, there will not be a winner even if they all agreed who shall be it.

On 5/12/2024 at 8:01 AM, Guest Rick said:

For abstentions we actually count it differently. In our system voting abstain gives the same effect as voting no. In the image, there are 24 senators but 4 did not show up to vote. With 20 senators voting, 11 is needed for a majority. 8 senators voted in favor, 6 against, 6 abstained. Since we do not have the 11 "yes votes" the motion is denied.
It's very interesting to see how other systems would work.

So it would appear that, under your organization's rules (to the extent you have described them correctly), your organization's rules in fact require a majority of the senators present for the adoption of most motions, and require a majority of all senators for the election of the Senate President.

I would note that in the example described, there were only 14 senators voting. To "abstain" means to refrain from doing something. In the context of voting, it means to refrain from voting. So senators who are abstaining are, by definition, not voting.

On 5/12/2024 at 8:01 AM, Guest Rick said:

If this resolution was in your local parliament, would the resolution have passed?

To the extent that you are asking whether the resolution above would have been adopted under the rules of a legislative body in the United States, the answer to that will depend on what legislative body in particular you are referring to, and would possibly also depend upon the type of resolution. In any event, that question is beyond the scope of RONR and this forum.

To the extent you are asking whether the resolution above would have been adopted under the rules of an assembly utilizing Robert's Rules of Order as its parliamentary authority, and assuming this is an ordinary main motion and assuming the organization has no superseding rules of its own on this subject, the resolution would have been adopted by a vote of 8 to 6, as that is a majority of the members present and voting. The abstentions are ignored.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 5/12/2024 at 9:01 AM, Guest Rick said:

Yes we do use difference rules to vote.

Well, I would like to see the exact language of these rules, as written in your bylaws, before continuing to guess how your thresholds might be calculated.  Just because you have "always" done things that way does not mean you have always done it properly.  But it might.

[Guest Greenacres]

Every year we vote on new HOA board usually public ballot count. This year, even though there was a public count, the new president took the ballots to his house and a week later came out with new numbers. Of course he cheated but he says nothing says he can’t change the votes after keeping them at his house for a week. 

[Dan Honemann]

On 9/17/2024 at 6:02 PM, Guest Greenacres said:

Every year we vote on new HOA board usually public ballot count. This year, even though there was a public count, the new president took the ballots to his house and a week later came out with new numbers. Of course he cheated but he says nothing says he can’t change the votes after keeping them at his house for a week. 

You say "the new president took the ballots to his house".   Is this the guy who was just elected?

[Atul Kapur]

Guest Greenacres, please start a new thread for this completely different topic.

And, there are time limits and a procedure for a recount of the ballots, which is the closest real thing to what this person is claiming to have done.

[Guest fran quittel]

there was a vote tonight in our homeowners association.

6 members present. 3 voted aye, 2 nays, 1 abstention.

did the vote pass or is it a tie?  Did the motion need 4 members to pass?

thanks. franq101@gmail.com

 

 

[Josh Martin]

On 9/24/2024 at 2:35 AM, Guest fran quittel said:

there was a vote tonight in our homeowners association.

6 members present. 3 voted aye, 2 nays, 1 abstention.

did the vote pass or is it a tie?  Did the motion need 4 members to pass?

In the general case, a vote of 3-2 passes. An abstention generally has no effect on the vote one way or the other. The default requirement is a majority of the members present and voting, and members who abstain are not voting. Although I would also advise checking whether your rules say anything on this subject.

I would also add that, because this vote has already happened, at this point the vote was adopted or lost based upon the declaration of the chair. It's too late to correct an error in this matter now.