Withdraw Bylaws Amendment

[Bonnie E.]

1. An amendment to our bylaws was referred to the "resolutions committee" for study prior to our convention, as required.

2. The amendment was found to be out-of-order. (But even if it was not, the question still applies.)

3. If the proponent wishes to withdraw the proposed amendment BEFORE copies are distributed to delegates for advance study, as required, does that amendment have to be included in the copies?

4. Please help me with a RONR reference regarding the answer.

Thank you.

[Rob Elsman]

In many instances, the resolutions committee of a convention is given authority not to report on a resolution referred to the committee. In this case, the inopportune resolution will be pigeonholed, and the convention will hear nothing further of it.

If, on the other hand, the committee is required to report the resolution, no rule in RONR requires advance distribution to all delegates. The society's rules and customs should be observed, instead.

[Bonnie E.]

Sorry, when I said "as required," I meant that this is required in our bylaws.

[Rob Elsman]

Well, if your rule is controlling, then you tell us. 🙂

[Atul Kapur]

 It would be helpful to see the exact wording of your by laws regarding their amendment And the role, duties, and authority of the resolutions committee

Edited February 1, 2023 at 02:49 PM by Atul Kapur

[Bonnie E.]

Here's a portion:

Immediately upon receipt, copies of proposals shall be forwarded to all members of the Jurisprudence [resolutions] Committee.

If a proposal is deemed to be "not in proper form" or "out of order" when received by the Jurisprudence committee, it will be returned to the proponents [there are two], postmarked within fourteen days of receipt, with suggestions from said Committee for corrections as to form or reason(s) for being considered "out of order." The proponents may then resubmit the corrected proposal to the Secretary's office by March 15, for consideration at the upcoming session. If the revised proposal is not received by the Secretary's office by March 15, it shall be deemed submitted as originally proposed.

Copies of all proposed changes will be sent to all Chapters for study and consideration at their April meeting.

 -- As you can see, we have no rule regarding withdrawal of a proposal prior to copies being sent to Chapters for study. That's where I'm looking at Robert's for help.

[Rob Elsman]

As you can see, the rule is at least partially written in the agentless passive voice. It is no wonder there are questions about the rule, since it is impossible to know who is to do the action of the verb.

My own estimation is that this rule is nonsense. I have no way to decipher what it means, if it means anything at all. There is no way to make a silver purse out of a sow's ear, as they say.

[Josh Martin]

On 2/1/2023 at 9:05 AM, Bonnie E. said:

Immediately upon receipt, copies of proposals shall be forwarded to all members of the Jurisprudence [resolutions] Committee.

If a proposal is deemed to be "not in proper form" or "out of order" when received by the Jurisprudence committee, it will be returned to the proponents [there are two], postmarked within fourteen days of receipt, with suggestions from said Committee for corrections as to form or reason(s) for being considered "out of order." The proponents may then resubmit the corrected proposal to the Secretary's office by March 15, for consideration at the upcoming session. If the revised proposal is not received by the Secretary's office by March 15, it shall be deemed submitted as originally proposed.

Copies of all proposed changes will be sent to all Chapters for study and consideration at their April meeting.

 -- As you can see, we have no rule regarding withdrawal of a proposal prior to copies being sent to Chapters for study. That's where I'm looking at Robert's for help.

In the ordinary case, the rule in question does not appear to provide any mechanism for a member to withdraw a proposal. So I would generally say that once a proposal has been properly submitted, the proposal must be sent to the chapters, as provided in the rule.

It's less clear to me what happens to proposals which are determined by the committee to be "not in proper form" or "out of order." A member could refuse to provide a corrected proposal by the deadline. That may (or may not) have the effect of "withdrawing" the proposal, but it's not entirely clear. The rule provides "If the revised proposal is not received by the Secretary's office by March 15, it shall be deemed submitted as originally proposed." I don't know if that means that the committee is authorized to reject the proposal, or whether the proposal must still be included in what is sent to the chapters for study.

In the long run, it would be advisable to amend the rule for clarity. In the interim, it will be up to the organization to interpret what the rule means.

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

I actually don't think it is unclear.  Not a great rule but I don't find it unclear.

 

1.  No you cannot withdraw it.  That is a flaw.

2.  If you don't correct it as recommended by the resolutions committee, the one they rejected gets distributed to the chapters.  

[Richard Brown]

On 2/1/2023 at 10:30 AM, Caryn Ann Harlos said:

I actually don't think it is unclear.  Not a great rule but I don't find it unclear.

 

1.  No you cannot withdraw it.  That is a flaw.

2.  If you don't correct it as recommended by the resolutions committee, the one they rejected gets distributed to the chapters.  

I agree.  That is my interpretation as well.   It seems clear to me that if a "corrected" proposal is not submitted, the original one still stands and gets distributed to the chapters for consideration at the upcoming session.

What is not clear is whether this committee has the authority to disallow proposals which it deems are out of order or not in proper form or if the committee can only make a recommendation.  I interpret the rule as permitting the committee to only make a recommendation, but this is ultimately a question of bylaws interpretation for the members of the society to make.

Edited to add:  Although the rule does not appear to permit a bylaw proposal to be withdrawn at that stage in the process, the proposing member could quite possibly withdraw the proposal at the "upcoming session" prior to it being stated by the chair per the rules in RONR.  I note that the society might well have an individualized rule concerning withdrawing motions.

Edited February 1, 2023 at 05:15 PM by Richard Brown
Added last paragraph

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

On 2/1/2023 at 10:10 AM, Richard Brown said:

I agree.  That is my interpretation as well.   It seems clear to me that if a "corrected" proposal is not submitted, the original one still stands and gets distributed to the chapters for consideration at the upcoming session.

What is not clear is whether this committee has the authority to disallow proposals which it deems are out of order or not in proper form or if the committee can only make a recommendation.  I interpret the rule as permitting the committee to only make a recommendation, but this is ultimately a question of bylaws interpretation for the members of the society to make.

The only potential lack of clarity of I see is on one said to be out of order - but in ones in which they suggest a "cure" I don't think it is unclear.

 

[Gary Novosielski]

I'm wondering on what grounds a proposed bylaws amendment might be ruled out of order.

[Richard Brown]

On 2/1/2023 at 11:14 AM, Gary Novosielski said:

I'm wondering on what grounds a proposed bylaws amendment might be ruled out of order.

I've been wondering the same thing, but I can imagine scenarios.  One possible situation would be if the proposed bylaw amendment conflicts with a provision in the Articles of Incorporation or the constitution if the society is incorporated or has a separate constitution.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 2/1/2023 at 12:17 PM, Richard Brown said:

I've been wondering the same thing, but I can imagine scenarios.  One possible situation would be if the proposed bylaw amendment conflicts with a provision in the Articles of Incorporation or the constitution if the society is incorporated or has a separate constitution.

Yes, i agree.  I also had the thought that if it had a parent organization, there might be bylaws provisions that are mandated and not subject to amendment except by the parent.

Perhaps @Bonnie E.would let us know what the reason was in this particular case.

[Bonnie E.]

The reason in this case was that the proponent wanted our State organization to allow visitation to our closed meetings by members of a similar organization.

Our parent organization determines the requirements for visitation to our meetings, which is the possession of a dues card issued by that same parent organization.

We, on the State level, cannot supersede the requirements set by the parent organization. Therefore, the legislation was declared out of order.