Guest Cynce Posted February 25, 2023 at 05:56 AM Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 at 05:56 AM I am the Vice President (and relatively new to this position) of a small non-profit club. Per our by-laws, the VP appoints a Sergeant at Arms but it doesn't state who that person can or cannot be. We have a problematic board member (who I will call Debbie Downer) who is intimidating, condescending, very disruptive and a strong, type A personality. In the past, the VP has always chosen someone who is in the general membership audience. The chosen person usually does not know the rules and is always steamrolled by Debbie Downer because she always gets her way. I cannot find anything about WHO can be Sergeant at Arms in Robert's Rules (for Dummies) version. My question: can I appoint someone on our board of directors, including myself, who are also strong personalities, will stand up to Debbie Downer and won't be steamrollled by her? Our goal is to keep her in check so we can have a productive meeting. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puzzling Posted February 25, 2023 at 10:44 AM Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 at 10:44 AM It depends on the precise wording in the bylaws, but it looks like you may appoint whoever you want. (Even non-members or family members) It is a bit strange that the vice president appoints the sergeant at arms , the sergeant at arms function is to support the president so why not let him appoint the person? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted February 25, 2023 at 03:39 PM Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 at 03:39 PM (edited) On 2/24/2023 at 11:56 PM, Guest Cynce said: I am the Vice President (and relatively new to this position) of a small non-profit club. Per our by-laws, the VP appoints a Sergeant at Arms but it doesn't state who that person can or cannot be. We have a problematic board member (who I will call Debbie Downer) who is intimidating, condescending, very disruptive and a strong, type A personality. In the past, the VP has always chosen someone who is in the general membership audience. The chosen person usually does not know the rules and is always steamrolled by Debbie Downer because she always gets her way. I cannot find anything about WHO can be Sergeant at Arms in Robert's Rules (for Dummies) version. My question: can I appoint someone on our board of directors, including myself, who are also strong personalities, will stand up to Debbie Downer and won't be steamrollled by her? Our goal is to keep her in check so we can have a productive meeting. Thank you To answer your question, you are free to appoint any person you wish to this position, including yourself, unless your bylaws provide otherwise. If you intend to appoint yourself, however, it may be prudent to have a "back-up" available in the event you are called upon to temporarily fill in for the President as presiding officer. I would like to hear your understanding of what you expect the "Sergeant at Arms" to do and what your bylaws say concerning the duties of this position. The way this post is written makes me wonder if the duties of this position in your organization are nonstandard. In particular, it's not clear to me what knowledge of the rules has to do with it. This is what RONR has to say concerning the duties of the position: "A sergeant-at-arms (or warden, or warrant officer, as sometimes called), who, on the floor of the meeting hall, assists in preserving order as the chair may direct. In a convention or large meeting this officer may have charge of the ushers. He may handle certain physical arrangements in the hall as well, such as being responsible in some cases for seeing that the furnishings are in proper order for each meeting. In a legislative or public body that has the power to penalize or compel the attendance of its members, the sergeant-at-arms may have the duty of serving warrants or notices of fines, or of arresting absent members in the event of a Call of the House (40:13–16)." RONR (12th ed.) 47:40 I would note that the most important person in relation to dealing with a "problematic board member" is the chair. Edited February 25, 2023 at 03:41 PM by Josh Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cynce Posted February 25, 2023 at 09:05 PM Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 at 09:05 PM Thank you for your knowledge and input. We are a very small non-profit club with about 50-60 members. We are low-key and our rules are lax. The rules in our by-laws have not been enforced for a very long time which explains why this Debbie Downer has been able to rule everything according to how SHE wants and has become a tyrant. She has been the president off and on for about 30 years. She makes up rules as she goes along. She is very argumentative, picks fights with others and has driven off members. She hates change and resists any attempts to try anything new that will improve our club. However, we now have a new board of directors, myself included. She is no longer the president. She is in a lesser role, but still on the board. The majority of our board members and general membership are tired of her attitude and shenanigans. It's time for change. Since the Sergeant at Arms responsibility falls on me, I intend to do just that. This is what it says in our by-laws: "The Vice-President shall preside in the absence of the President and assist the President when required, shall appoint a Sergeant At Arms who shall maintain reasonable order at the meetings...." It is quite ambiguous as to what the circumstances should be as to when to intervene to maintain order, and our meetings have gotten out of hand, with her in the middle of it. We have been operating without a Code of Conduct for 50+ years. I guess no one thought to have one until I came along. So I wrote one, and based the disciplinary action exactly on how Roberts Rules recommends. It was approved by our board and general membership. Our by-laws also state under the "Authority" section: "Robert's Rules of Order Revised shall be the final authority for procedure except where they conflict with the Constitution or By-laws of the Club". Since there is no conflict, and our by-laws do not clearly state WHO can serve as Sergeant at Arms, I feel it is necessary to either appoint myself or the President (or other board members) as we are both strong personalities, and can keep Debbie Downer in check. I feel that it is unfair to put the burden on our general membership (which is common practice) who are attending the meetings as they don't know the by-law rules and are getting trampled over by Debbie Downer. No wonder we can't get anything done or move forward. That's why I feel it's necessary for me to make sure I have the authority to assign the best person I see fit to handle this situation. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted February 25, 2023 at 09:41 PM Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 at 09:41 PM (edited) On 2/25/2023 at 3:05 PM, Guest Cynce said: Since there is no conflict, and our by-laws do not clearly state WHO can serve as Sergeant at Arms, I feel it is necessary to either appoint myself or the President (or other board members) as we are both strong personalities, and can keep Debbie Downer in check. I feel that it is unfair to put the burden on our general membership (which is common practice) who are attending the meetings as they don't know the by-law rules and are getting trampled over by Debbie Downer. No wonder we can't get anything done or move forward. That's why I feel it's necessary for me to make sure I have the authority to assign the best person I see fit to handle this situation. Okay, but to be clear, what you're describing isn't the job of the Sergeant at Arms, at least as that role is understood in RONR. It's the job of the chair (generally, the President). The chair is the one who would intervene when rules need to be enforced, calling members to order, etc. When the text says that the Sergeant at Arms "assists in preserving order as the chair may direct," that doesn't mean making rulings or arguing with people. It mostly means things like escorting people out of the room if it gets bad enough that things reach that point. They're more like a bailiff or a security guard, not a judge or a presiding officer. So you're free to appoint yourself as Sergeant at Arms if you wish, but the Sergeant at Arms doesn't do what you think they do, at least in RONR - I don't know what the rule in your bylaws on this matter means. I would suggest that you and the President review the following sections in RONR (12th ed.) for guidance on how to handle these matters. Decorum in Debate: 43:19-28 Role of Chairman or President: 47:5-20 Dealing with Offenses in a Meeting: 61:6-18 Comparable sections in the 4th Edition of Robert's Rules of Order for Dummies (which is a fairly good third party guide, but you should still get The Right Book at some point) are as follows: Playing Nice: Decorum in Debate - Chapter 7 Perfecting Presidential Presence - Chapter 15 Maintaining Order in Meetings - Chapter 18 Edited February 25, 2023 at 09:44 PM by Josh Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cynce Posted February 25, 2023 at 10:02 PM Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 at 10:02 PM Thanks for the clarification. Let me know if I have this right: The President/Chair usually is the one responsible for keeping order. The Sergeant At Arms escorts the person out of the room if the President decides the person needs to be removed. Also, according to our Bylaws, the VP "shall assess fines as directed by the president". Can you tell me what that means? Can you give me an example? How do I know how much to charge? How do we collect the $$? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted February 25, 2023 at 10:40 PM Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 at 10:40 PM (edited) On 2/25/2023 at 4:02 PM, Guest Cynce said: Let me know if I have this right: The President/Chair usually is the one responsible for keeping order. The Sergeant At Arms escorts the person out of the room if the President decides the person needs to be removed. I think that is generally a good summary, although I think "if the President decides the person needs to be removed" is a bit of an oversimplification, especially if the person in question is a member of the assembly. Only the assembly itself may order a member to be removed, and only after following the appropriate procedures. I would review the procedures I cited for more information regarding removing a member from the hall. On 2/25/2023 at 4:02 PM, Guest Cynce said: Also, according to our Bylaws, the VP "shall assess fines as directed by the president". Can you tell me what that means? Can you give me an example? How do I know how much to charge? How do we collect the $$? I have no idea. If that is all your bylaws say on the matter, it would seem desirable to adopt additional rules clarifying such details, either in the bylaws or in lower-level rules. Edited February 25, 2023 at 10:41 PM by Josh Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cynce Posted February 25, 2023 at 10:53 PM Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 at 10:53 PM Thank you for the explanations and clarifications. You've been extremely helpful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts