Agenda Order

[Guest Guest]

Does the new business of an agenda need to be in a certain order? Say you are possibly voting in a new board member does that to be number one?

[Gary Novosielski]

No, it may be nothing more organized than who seeks recognition first.

If there's an opportunity to prearrange the order of some items, there may be logical reasons to put some things before others,  as with considering several bylaws amendments which could depend on each other in some way. 

Do what makes sense.

[Guest Guest]

On 3/17/2023 at 12:28 AM, Gary Novosielski said:

No, it may be nothing more organized than who seeks recognition first.

If there's an opportunity to prearrange the order of some items, there may be logical reasons to put some things before others,  as with considering several bylaws amendments which could depend on each other in some way. 

Do what makes sense.

Yes it does thank you. Just wanted to make sure as secretary of the board that when building the agenda I don’t have to put things number one just because the chairperson says so.

[Rob Elsman]

There are no items of business in the new business section of an agenda.

[Gary Novosielski]

Well, that's another question.  Do you have rules about who constructs the agenda? Does it get amended/adopted by the assembly at the top of the meeting?

For that matter, do you need an agenda?  Even organizations that do use one often have no detail under the New Business header, and just play that part by ear.

 

[George Mervosh]

I keep getting this wrong, but if an agenda is adopted with items listed under new business, aren't those items really general orders?

[Gary Novosielski]

On 3/17/2023 at 12:33 PM, George Mervosh said:

I keep getting this wrong, but if an agenda is adopted with items listed under new business, aren't those items really general orders?

Yeah, it very well might, so as soon as it's put under New Business it doesn't belong there.

[Josh Martin]

On 3/17/2023 at 11:33 AM, George Mervosh said:

I keep getting this wrong, but if an agenda is adopted with items listed under new business, aren't those items really general orders?

They are certainly orders of the day in some regard. Whether they are general orders or special orders depends on the specifics.

"By a single vote, a series of special orders or general orders—or a mixture of both—can be made; such a series is called an agenda. When an hour is assigned to a particular subject in an agenda, that subject is thereby made a special order unless, by footnote or other means, it is stated that the time is intended merely for guidance, in which case the subject is only a general order. Subjects for which no hour is specified in an agenda are general orders." RONR (12th ed.) 41:58

[Rob Elsman]

Again, there are no items of business in the new business section of an agenda.

If a memorandum is prepared for the president and not intended for adoption, motions related to new business that have been submitted to the president or secretary in advance of the meeting (for the secretary or reading clerk to read when the motion is made) can be entered on the memorandum for convenience; but, it should be clearly understood that the order that these motions are listed in the memorandum does not indicate the order in which the motions will be considered, since new business is considered in the order that members are able to obtain the floor to make the proper motion.

[George Mervosh]

On 3/17/2023 at 12:46 PM, Josh Martin said:

They are certainly orders of the day in some regard. Whether they are general orders or special orders depends on the specifics.

"By a single vote, a series of special orders or general orders—or a mixture of both—can be made; such a series is called an agenda. When an hour is assigned to a particular subject in an agenda, that subject is thereby made a special order unless, by footnote or other means, it is stated that the time is intended merely for guidance, in which case the subject is only a general order. Subjects for which no hour is specified in an agenda are general orders." RONR (12th ed.) 41:58

Thanks, Josh.  Yes, this subject came up before about listing new business items in an adopted agenda, and I thought that was the case.  

[Rob Elsman]

The citation by @Josh Martin does not tell us that items of new business are listed in the section for new business in an agenda.  The motions mentioned have to do with the creation of orders of the day, not new business.  Again, items of new business are not listed in an agenda.  When the time for new business arrives, members may make main motions in the order that they are able to obtain the floor.  These items are not listed in an agenda.

Naturally, public bodies that must conform to open meeting laws may have different requirements, depending on the applicable statutes, regulations, or ordinances.

[Gary Novosielski]

I'm happy to go with that interpretation.  I know that some agenda-dependent organizations do list items under New Business, and some of them have to by rule, others by custom, and still more by overlooking bad habits. 

But rather than fall into that last category myself, I agree it's proper to leave New Business unblemished, and list actual orders of the day where they rightfully belong.

[Josh Martin]

On 3/17/2023 at 11:56 AM, Rob Elsman said:

The citation by @Josh Martin does not tell us that items of new business are listed in the section for new business in an agenda.  The motions mentioned have to do with the creation of orders of the day, not new business.  Again, items of new business are not listed in an agenda.  When the time for new business arrives, members may make main motions in the order that they are able to obtain the floor.  These items are not listed in an agenda.

Naturally, public bodies that must conform to open meeting laws may have different requirements, depending on the applicable statutes, regulations, or ordinances.

I agree completely and did not intend to suggest otherwise. If the assembly includes an item on an agenda which is adopted, this item becomes an order of the day and is no longer new business. Such items should therefore not be listed under New Business. As a consequence, I am in complete agreement that, at least so far as RONR is concerned, "items of new business are not listed in an agenda."

[Richard Brown]

All of this discussion about agenda items actually being general orders and not new business is way over the heads of the vast majority of our guests who are asking questions. As far as they are concerned, if it’s not unfinished business (or what they might consider old business), its new business. Theoretically those items might be general orders, but I see nothing wrong with listing them under new business because that is what the members are used to and what they expect. As a practical matter, it doesn’t really make much difference whether they’re technically general orders or new business. They are in the place on the agenda where the organization wants them to be.

For us to start saying, “oh no, you can’t do it that way. Those items are general orders and you must redo your agenda and list those things correctly“ is just going to cause confusion and cause those people to think that we have no idea what life in the real world is like and they won’t want any part of our rules that don’t make any sense to them.

The way to bring them around is by educating them and polite persuasion, not by condescending statements like “ there are no items of new business listed on an agenda“. I can just see and hear the reaction of our guests when they  read statements like that.

Edited to add:  also, if the agenda is not actually adopted by the assembly, those items listed under new business are not general orders but are in fact items of new business which the chair intends to take up in order.

Edited March 19, 2023 at 09:54 PM by Richard Brown

[Rob Elsman]

If the society has adopted Robert's Rules as its parliamentary authority, any main motion that has the effect of suspending the rules requires a two-thirds vote for adoption. RONR (12th ed.) 10:8, item (7)(b).

By rule, items of new business are handled in the order that members are able to obtain the floor to make the main motion that introduces the business to the assembly. RONR (12th ed.) 41:27. A list of ordered items of new business distributed for information only does not suspend this rule, nor does it even promise that any particular item will actually be transacted.