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conducting a vote "with anonymity"


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On 3/18/2023 at 11:37 AM, Josh Martin said:

Well, you should be more concerned about the email voting, because that is a serious problem, and the semi-anonymous voting isn't a problem.

The concern that I do have with email voting is that not everybody gets the emails and not everybody gets the same emails. A large percentage of homeowners are over 75 years old and do not actively use email so some people don't even know that the vote is happening. People never had to "opt in" to receive the emails. Others simply don't care either way about voting. 

The concern I have with semi-anonymous is that the Board is planning on two back-to-back votes on different but related topics. The Board will be able to see who is supporting them, by how people voted, who voted, and will be able to see how many additional votes they need, and from whom, in order to be successful in the passing the second vote which will have a lower threshold for passing. The opposition side will only hear if we won or lost...and usually only after about 10 days of waiting after the day that the voting has closed. 

It's like if the incumbent state government could see exactly who cast what vote at each election, but the opposition party would only learn each time that they lost by 49% to 51%. This does not make sense to me as being democratic. It feels like the fox guarding the hen house. How could this vote even be audited or challenged if no one but a subset of the Board are allowed to see it? That to me, it seems like a huge amount of power to be given to the Board if they are allowed to see the votes, but no one else. 

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On 3/19/2023 at 10:57 AM, Guest Cathy Guest said:

The concern that I do have with email voting is that not everybody gets the emails and not everybody gets the same emails. A large percentage of homeowners are over 75 years old and do not actively use email so some people don't even know that the vote is happening. People never had to "opt in" to receive the emails. Others simply don't care either way about voting. 

The concern I have with semi-anonymous is that the Board is planning on two back-to-back votes on different but related topics. The Board will be able to see who is supporting them, by how people voted, who voted, and will be able to see how many additional votes they need, and from whom, in order to be successful in the passing the second vote which will have a lower threshold for passing. The opposition side will only hear if we won or lost...and usually only after about 10 days of waiting after the day that the voting has closed. 

It's like if the incumbent state government could see exactly who cast what vote at each election, but the opposition party would only learn each time that they lost by 49% to 51%. This does not make sense to me as being democratic. It feels like the fox guarding the hen house. How could this vote even be audited or challenged if no one but a subset of the Board are allowed to see it? That to me, it seems like a huge amount of power to be given to the Board if they are allowed to see the votes, but no one else. 

Your concerns are well-founded.  A ballot vote should be anonymous.  You will get no argument here.  That's one of the reasons why email voting is not in order, if the rules in RONR apply.  But you seem to be preaching to the choir. 

By the way, all members should be aware of the report of the tally.  It is not proper to simply announce which side won and lost.

Edited by Gary Novosielski
typo
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On 3/19/2023 at 9:57 AM, Guest Cathy Guest said:

It's like if the incumbent state government could see exactly who cast what vote at each election, but the opposition party would only learn each time that they lost by 49% to 51%. This does not make sense to me as being democratic. It feels like the fox guarding the hen house. How could this vote even be audited or challenged if no one but a subset of the Board are allowed to see it? That to me, it seems like a huge amount of power to be given to the Board if they are allowed to see the votes, but no one else. 

The votes should be counted by persons who are trusted. This is known as a "tellers committee." Such persons may well be members of the board. As to an "audit," it would seem to me the votes could be retained and a recount could be ordered under the time limits permitted in RONR.

If the organization wishes to adopt rules requiring the vote to be public, or to be secret, or whatever, it is free to do so. But it does not appear to me there is any such requirement in the rules at this time.

So if this vote was taken by mail, then I think it would (at least arguably) be permissible, depending on the meaning of "If it becomes necessary for the Association membership to act on any matter of business." It appears to me that it is not permissible to take this vote by email, however, because voting by email is not authorized in the organization's bylaws.

On 3/19/2023 at 12:59 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Your concerns are well-founded.  A ballot vote should be anonymous.  You will get no argument here.  That's one of the reasons why email voting is not in order, if the rules in RONR apply.  But you seem to be preaching to the choir. 

Yes, certainly a ballot vote must be anonymous, but so far as I am aware, there is no requirement that a ballot vote be held. The rule in question simply refers to "a mail vote of members." The rule does not contain the word "ballot" or any other language suggesting the vote must be anonymous. A mail vote does not necessarily need to be anonymous. RONR contains procedures for mail votes which are anonymous and mail votes which are not anonymous.

On 3/18/2023 at 11:31 AM, Gary Novosielski said:

Yes, they could, and that's probably what happens, but with such rules, the board has (or thinks it has) the power to declare membership meetings "inconvenient" and so remove the power of the membership to amend, debate, form committees, raise points of order, or propose new "matters", among other things.

We are told that the bylaws provide the following:

"Section 7. If it becomes necessary for the Association membership to act on any matter of business, and if, in the judgment of the Board, an Association meeting would be inconvenient or unnecessary, a mail vote of members may be taken, provided that each member be fully informed of the details of the proposed matter of business. Decision may be reached only by return of ballots by not less than one-third of all Association members within the time stipulated by the Board and stated in the mail-vote notice."

It seems quite apparent that it is up to the board's judgment whether a meeting is "inconvenient or unnecessary," since that is exactly what the bylaws say.

The more ambiguous question is what exactly is meant by "If it becomes necessary for the Association membership to act on any matter of business." Does this refer to matters which are "necessary" to act upon prior to the next regular meeting of the membership? Does this simply refer to the fact that action on a matter is "necessary" for the membership to act upon, not the board? I'm not entirely certain. It will ultimately be up to the organization to resolve such questions. In the long run, the rule should be clarified.

As to whether this rule is in the best interests of the association, I leave that question to the judgment of the association.

Edited by Josh Martin
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On 3/19/2023 at 3:53 PM, Josh Martin said:

Yes, certainly a ballot vote must be anonymous, but so far as I am aware, there is no requirement that a ballot vote be held. The rule in question simply refers to "a mail vote of members." The rule does not contain the word "ballot" or any other language suggesting the vote must be anonymous. A mail vote does not necessarily need to be anonymous. RONR contains procedures for mail votes which are anonymous and mail votes which are not anonymous.

And under ordinary circumstances, it would be a simple matter to clarify this with a motion to hold the mail vote by ballot.  But since all of this is taking place outside of a meeting of the body which should have complete control over any questions involving its own voting, that's not possible.

On 3/19/2023 at 3:53 PM, Josh Martin said:

As to whether this rule is in the best interests of the association, I leave that question to the judgment of the association.

Fair enough, but as for me, while I respect the right of the association to adopt unfair, unworkable, and undemocratic bylaws provisions, I don't have to like it.  I'm also not convinced that the bylaws are being properly observed, either.  There's certainly no rule permitting email voting.

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