Convention Quorum

[Bonnie E.]

We are a state-wide organization with smaller chapters/lodges around the state. At our yearly convention, the quorum requirement to conduct business is at least one representative from 70% of the smaller chapters. We have no problem with that. The problem comes when there is a "mass exodus" of members immediately following the election of officers. There are a couple of important pieces of business that have not yet been dealt with - the vote on the budget for one.

If it is called to the attention of the Chair or he notices that we may not have a quorum present, and we cannot compel attendance, how do we go about determining if we still have a quorum? Is it done by roll call of the Chapters or by some other method?

[Rob Elsman]

A call of the roll, chapter by chapter, seems to be the obvious procedure.

[Atul Kapur]

Have you considered have you considered altering the agenda so that the important business is done before the exodus occurs?

Edited May 12, 2023 at 05:23 AM by Atul Kapur

[Dan Honemann]

On 5/11/2023 at 7:11 PM, Bonnie E. said:

We are a state-wide organization with smaller chapters/lodges around the state. At our yearly convention, the quorum requirement to conduct business is at least one representative from 70% of the smaller chapters. We have no problem with that. The problem comes when there is a "mass exodus" of members immediately following the election of officers. There are a couple of important pieces of business that have not yet been dealt with - the vote on the budget for one.

If it is called to the attention of the Chair or he notices that we may not have a quorum present, and we cannot compel attendance, how do we go about determining if we still have a quorum? Is it done by roll call of the Chapters or by some other method?

Your bylaws should provide for the appointment of a Credentials Committee, and as is stated in RONR, 12th ed., 59:26, this Committee's master roll of currently registered voting members of the convention must be maintained at all times in such a way that their exact number can be promptly determined. 

[Josh Martin]

On 5/11/2023 at 6:11 PM, Bonnie E. said:

We are a state-wide organization with smaller chapters/lodges around the state. At our yearly convention, the quorum requirement to conduct business is at least one representative from 70% of the smaller chapters. We have no problem with that. The problem comes when there is a "mass exodus" of members immediately following the election of officers. There are a couple of important pieces of business that have not yet been dealt with - the vote on the budget for one.

RONR ordinarily advises completing the election of officers early in the meeting, but it seems your organization may wish to disregard this advice and ensure that other important business, such as the budget, is completed prior to the election of officers.

On 5/11/2023 at 6:11 PM, Bonnie E. said:

If it is called to the attention of the Chair or he notices that we may not have a quorum present, and we cannot compel attendance, how do we go about determining if we still have a quorum? Is it done by roll call of the Chapters or by some other method?

If the quorum requirement is "at least one representative from 70% of the smaller chapters," then yes, it would seem to me a "roll call of the chapters" may well be the most efficient method.

Another method might be to provide that each chapter shall sit in a designated area, and then see which areas are empty, although this may a less precise method unless the seating rules are strictly enforced.

The organization may also wish to consider adopting a quorum requirement that is easier to determine.

On 5/12/2023 at 3:21 AM, Dan Honemann said:

Your bylaws should provide for the appointment of a Credentials Committee, and as is stated in RONR, 12th ed., 59:26, this Committee's master roll of currently registered voting members of the convention must be maintained at all times in such a way that their exact number can be promptly determined. 

I agree, but the particular quorum requirement is not a percentage of the registered voting members, but instead is "at least one representative from 70% of the smaller chapters." The number of chapters remains the same regardless of the number of registered voting members.

To the extent that all members who left have dutifully turned in their credentials to the committee, the Credentials Committee may be able to determine that there is no longer at least one representative from 70% of the smaller chapters with credentials, and therefore there certainly is not a quorum. But if there is a "mass exodus" of members, it may take some time for the credentials committee to catch up and complete this report, and a roll call of the chapters may be faster.

Edited May 12, 2023 at 10:25 AM by Josh Martin

[Dan Honemann]

On 5/12/2023 at 4:21 AM, Dan Honemann said:

Your bylaws should provide for the appointment of a Credentials Committee, and as is stated in RONR, 12th ed., 59:26, this Committee's master roll of currently registered voting members of the convention must be maintained at all times in such a way that their exact number can be promptly determined. 

 

On 5/12/2023 at 6:21 AM, Josh Martin said:

I agree, but the particular quorum requirement is not a percentage of the registered voting members, but instead is "at least one representative from 70% of the smaller chapters." The number of chapters remains the same regardless of the number of registered voting members.

To the extent that all members who left have dutifully turned in their credentials to the committee, the Credentials Committee may be able to determine that there is no longer at least one representative from 70% of the smaller chapters with credentials, and therefore there certainly is not a quorum. But if there is a "mass exodus" of members, it may take some time for the credentials committee to catch up and complete this report, and a roll call of the chapters may be faster.

I agree, but it is worth noting that the default rule in RONR fixes the quorum in a convention as being a majority of the number who have been registered as attending, irrespective of whether some may have departed. In other words, the number of delegates actually present at any given point in time need not be determined. 

I realize that the default rule in RONR is inapplicable here, but Bonnie E. should take a close look at her bylaws and other applicable rules to see whether there is something in them specifying how the presence of "at least one representative from 70% of the smaller chapters" is to be determined. I would not be in the least bit surprised if she finds that those rules say that the Credentials Committee's master roll of currently registered voting members is required to be maintained in such a way as to provide the information needed to determine the presence of a quorum at any given point in time, irrespective of whether there has been a "mass exodus" of members.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 5/12/2023 at 11:47 AM, Dan Honemann said:

I agree, but it is worth noting that the default rule in RONR fixes the quorum in a convention as being a majority of the number who have been registered as attending, irrespective of whether some may have departed. In other words, the number of delegates actually present at any given point in time need not be determined. 

But wait: wouldn't the number of delegates actually present need to be known so that it can be compered with the number who have been registered, to see whether it constituted a majority of that number?

[Dan Honemann]

On 5/12/2023 at 11:53 AM, Gary Novosielski said:

But wait: wouldn't the number of delegates actually present need to be known so that it can be compered with the number who have been registered, to see whether it constituted a majority of that number?

Nope.

[Guest Quorum determined.]

On 5/12/2023 at 11:47 AM, Dan Honemann said:

 

I agree, but it is worth noting that the default rule in RONR fixes the quorum in a convention as being a majority of the number who have been registered as attending, irrespective of whether some may have departed. In other words, the number of delegates actually present at any given point in time need not be determined. 

I realize that the default rule in RONR is inapplicable here, but Bonnie E. should take a close look at her bylaws and other applicable rules to see whether there is something in them specifying how the presence of "at least one representative from 70% of the smaller chapters" is to be determined. I would not be in the least bit surprised if she finds that those rules say that the Credentials Committee's master roll of currently registered voting members is required to be maintained in such a way as to provide the information needed to determine the presence of a quorum at any given point in time, irrespective of whether there has been a "mass exodus" of members.

The quorum is determined by the Credentials Committee's list of registered members. When picking up credentials, each member must show their membership card indicating which chapter/lodge they belong to. If they belong to more than one, they must declare which they are representing. The 70% representation comes from a tally of which chapters/lodges are represented out of the total in the state.

[Dan Honemann]

On 5/12/2023 at 2:55 PM, Guest Quorum determined. said:

The quorum is determined by the Credentials Committee's list of registered members. When picking up credentials, each member must show their membership card indicating which chapter/lodge they belong to. If they belong to more than one, they must declare which they are representing. The 70% representation comes from a tally of which chapters/lodges are represented out of the total in the state.

Well, haven't you just answered the question that you asked?

(Or are you someone else?)

[Gary Novosielski]

On 5/12/2023 at 1:16 PM, Dan Honemann said:

Nope.

Consider this example:

There are 100 delegates registered, so a quorum is 51.  Now, without knowing how many are present, can you tell me if a quorum has been achieved?

[Josh Martin]

On 5/12/2023 at 7:59 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Consider this example:

There are 100 delegates registered, so a quorum is 51.  Now, without knowing how many are present, can you tell me if a quorum has been achieved?

I understand Mr. Honemann to be saying that, so far as the rules of RONR are concerned and assuming an organization has not adopted any superseding rule on this subject, members are considered to be "present" for purposes of determining a quorum if they have registered with the Credentials Committee and have not surrendered their credentials to said committee, whether or not the members are physically in the meeting hall at a given time.

So yes, the presence of a quorum could be determined by conferring with the chair of the Credentials Committee, and it would not be necessary to know how many members are actually present.

One imagines such rules exist because conventions tend to be quite large and trying to do an actual count of delegates present at a given time would be rather tedious, especially given that delegates are frequently moving around during a convention.

On 5/12/2023 at 1:55 PM, Guest Quorum determined. said:

The quorum is determined by the Credentials Committee's list of registered members. When picking up credentials, each member must show their membership card indicating which chapter/lodge they belong to. If they belong to more than one, they must declare which they are representing. The 70% representation comes from a tally of which chapters/lodges are represented out of the total in the state.

What happens when members leave? Do they turn in their credentials to the credentials committee?

If so, then I revise my earlier statement and concur with Mr. Honemann that the Credentials Committee should be able to answer this question.

Edited May 13, 2023 at 02:06 PM by Josh Martin

[puzzling]

On 5/12/2023 at 7:55 PM, Guest Quorum determined. said:

The quorum is determined by the Credentials Committee's list of registered members. When picking up credentials, each member must show their membership card indicating which chapter/lodge they belong to. If they belong to more than one, they must declare which they are representing. The 70% representation comes from a tally of which chapters/lodges are represented out of the total in the state

That does not sound like delegates to me. (For me delegates are officers elected by a chapter/ lodge to represent them)

This looks more like an interested member just turning up at the conference (and the member deciding to which chapter/Lodge he belongs if he belongs to more than one)

Not that this is a problem but puts the whole situation in another light. (Are members allowed to change there chapter/losge during the conference?)

[Gary Novosielski]

On 5/13/2023 at 10:04 AM, Josh Martin said:

I understand Mr. Honemann to be saying that, so far as the rules of RONR are concerned and assuming an organization has not adopted any superseding rule on this subject, members are considered to be "present" for purposes of determining a quorum if they have registered with the Credentials Committee and have not surrendered their credentials to said committee, whether or not the members are physically in the meeting hall at a given time.

So yes, the presence of a quorum could be determined by conferring with the chair of the Credentials Committee, and it would not be necessary to know how many members are actually present.

One imagines such rules exist because conventions tend to be quite large and trying to do an actual count of delegates present at a given time would be rather tedious, especially given that delegates are frequently moving around during a convention.

What happens when members leave? Do they turn in their credentials to the credentials committee?

If so, then I revise my earlier statement and concur with Mr. Honemann that the Credentials Committee should be able to answer this question.

I have read that section multiple times, and referred to the definition of quorum and of majority and I see no plausible way the rule could be interpreted in that way.

[Rob Elsman]

I reason that the general rule is not operative because of the particular way this convention's quorum requirement is written.

[Dan Honemann]

On 5/13/2023 at 10:35 AM, Gary Novosielski said:

I have read that section multiple times, and referred to the definition of quorum and of majority and I see no plausible way the rule could be interpreted in that way.

What Section?

[Dan Honemann]

Being somewhat uncomfortable with the responses I have posted in this thread, I have consulted with my colleague Mr. Balch, who I know has a far better understanding of the rules in RONR relating to conventions than I have.  To make a long story short, he has convinced me that I have managed to get things all fouled up in the responses that I have posted, and so I am obliged to inform you all of this fact and ask that you simply ignore all of my responses in this thread. 

I have no doubt but that what I have posted has caused a substantial amount of confusion, and for this I humbly apologize.

 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 5/13/2023 at 11:07 AM, Dan Honemann said:

What Section?

3:4, 40:2(3)

Which agree that the quorum is a majority of delegates who have registered as present, irrespective of whether some may have departed.

So, in my example:

• 100 have registered in person at the convention
• Some of those may have departed, but we don't care.
• A majority of 100 is 51
• We do not know how many are present.

Q:  Is there a quorum?

I contend that if we can tell from the above whether or not we have a quorum, then two things are true:

• It is impossible not to have a quorum.
• The requirement for a majority has been included in the language for no reason.

 

[Gary Novosielski]

OOps, okay, never mind.  You beat me by a minute.

Edited May 13, 2023 at 06:28 PM by Gary Novosielski

[Bonnie E.]

On 5/12/2023 at 11:47 AM, Dan Honemann said:

 

I agree, but it is worth noting that the default rule in RONR fixes the quorum in a convention as being a majority of the number who have been registered as attending, irrespective of whether some may have departed. In other words, the number of delegates actually present at any given point in time need not be determined. 

I realize that the default rule in RONR is inapplicable here, but Bonnie E. should take a close look at her bylaws and other applicable rules to see whether there is something in them specifying how the presence of "at least one representative from 70% of the smaller chapters" is to be determined. I would not be in the least bit surprised if she finds that those rules say that the Credentials Committee's master roll of currently registered voting members is required to be maintained in such a way as to provide the information needed to determine the presence of a quorum at any given point in time, irrespective of whether there has been a "mass exodus" of members.

The quorum is determined by the Credentials Committee's list of registered members. When picking up credentials, each member must show their membership card indicating which chapter/lodge they belong to. If they belong to more than one, they must declare which they are representing. The 70% representation comes from a tally of which chapters/lodges are represented out of the total in the state.

[Bonnie E.]

Of the lodges represented, there could be 1 person from 3 lodges, 15 from 4 lodges, 10 from some lodges. Determining quorum in this convention is based on the number of lodges that are represented by at least one person. The credentials chair determines how many lodges are represented when the members check in to get credentials (ballots, written info, etc.). If 14 people check in from one lodge and then 5 leave, he has no way of knowing that or keeping a count. Quorum to conduct business just depends on whether a lodge has at least 1 person present, and that there are 70% of the lodges represented.

The question comes in when quite a few people have left and there is business to be transacted. (I can't change this process for the upcoming convention.) If it is thought that there may not be representation from 70% of the lodges, can someone call for a roll call determination or does it only depend on the count at the beginning of the convention?

[puzzling]

While I still have questions if you are really should be speaking about delegates (instead of members) of a lodge (see my question before)

The roll call could just be:

"Are delegates of lodge 1 present?"

"Are delegates of lodge 2 present?"

And,so on and if 70% of the lodges are so present you have a quorum (I suppose you know how many lodges are in the state)

This can be done whenever there is a question if a quorum is present.

Am wondering how you decide if a majority is for or against a motion. (or is that not related to lodges?)

[Gary Novosielski]

On 5/13/2023 at 10:04 AM, Josh Martin said:

I understand Mr. Honemann to be saying that, so far as the rules of RONR are concerned and assuming an organization has not adopted any superseding rule on this subject, members are considered to be "present" for purposes of determining a quorum if they have registered with the Credentials Committee and have not surrendered their credentials to said committee, whether or not the members are physically in the meeting hall at a given time.

I understand that Mr. Honemann has withdrawn that opinion, but there are some other points that I think need to be clarified.

The phrase "irrespective of whether some may have departed" does not imply that people who have departed count toward a quorum.  It implies that the count of the delegates who have registered, which forms the basis for the quorum, is not lowered by people departing.  (I think that's still somewhat problematic. More on that below.) 

To establish whether a quorum is present, it is still necessary to know whether the delegates present in the hall constitute a majority of that number, or not.  It does not make sense to say that a delegate, even one who has not "departed" for home, but has merely stepped across the street for a cheese steak, should count toward a quorum.  I suppose it would be possible to write such a rule, but it would need to be much more explicit than what we have now.  I think the confusion may stem in part from the phrase "registered at the convention as" alternatively "attending" or "in attendance".  This does not imply that they are permanently "present" but rather that they have registered in person, rather than, say, by mail. "This may differ greatly from the number elected or appointed." [40:2(3)]

But what's problematic about the actual rule is that it's possible, if enough people "depart" to make obtaining a quorum impossible.  In my example, if 100 people register in person, and then half of them "depart," it is no longer possible to obtain a quorum.  Only 50 delegates remain, yet the quorum is still set at 51, i.e., a majority of those who have registered.  Note that it is the word majority here, which tells us that we still need to count heads in the hall. 

(If this were a mass meeting rather than a convention, then the quorum would simply be as many as are present, i.e., no minimum number.  The number present is always greater than a majority of the number present, which is why this construction is not used.)

But if the number of delegates at a convention is never lowered by departures, it may be impossible to achieve a majority of that number.  Therefore, I think it would be wise when developing the rules for a convention, to consider not using the default rule, but to specify that the quorum is a majority of those who are currently registered as attending, i.e., those who registered minus the number who have turned in their credentials and departed.  (How to ensure that they remember to do so is left as an exercise for the reader.)

I say it would be wise to consider, but I realize a case can be made that the current rule is the better choice.  It could well be argued that if enough people depart early, the remainder may be so unrepresentative of the general will that they should not be handling substantive business.

[Josh Martin]

On 5/14/2023 at 8:06 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

I understand that Mr. Honemann has withdrawn that opinion, but there are some other points that I think need to be clarified.

The phrase "irrespective of whether some may have departed" does not imply that people who have departed count toward a quorum.  It implies that the count of the delegates who have registered, which forms the basis for the quorum, is not lowered by people departing.  (I think that's still somewhat problematic. More on that below.) 

To establish whether a quorum is present, it is still necessary to know whether the delegates present in the hall constitute a majority of that number, or not.  It does not make sense to say that a delegate, even one who has not "departed" for home, but has merely stepped across the street for a cheese steak, should count toward a quorum.  I suppose it would be possible to write such a rule, but it would need to be much more explicit than what we have now.  I think the confusion may stem in part from the phrase "registered at the convention as" alternatively "attending" or "in attendance".  This does not imply that they are permanently "present" but rather that they have registered in person, rather than, say, by mail. "This may differ greatly from the number elected or appointed." [40:2(3)]

I agree completely. I thank Mr. Honemann for his clarification.

I probably should have thought about this more myself before posting my response, but I have been preoccupied with other matters.

On 5/14/2023 at 1:06 PM, Bonnie E. said:

Of the lodges represented, there could be 1 person from 3 lodges, 15 from 4 lodges, 10 from some lodges. Determining quorum in this convention is based on the number of lodges that are represented by at least one person. The credentials chair determines how many lodges are represented when the members check in to get credentials (ballots, written info, etc.). If 14 people check in from one lodge and then 5 leave, he has no way of knowing that or keeping a count. Quorum to conduct business just depends on whether a lodge has at least 1 person present, and that there are 70% of the lodges represented.

I would note that the procedures should be set up in such a manner that if a delegate leaves the convention itself, as opposed to simply stepping out of the meeting hall, he is to turn his credentials in to the Credentials Committee.

Notwithstanding this, I concur that it in any event, it is necessary to determine the persons actually present.

On 5/14/2023 at 1:06 PM, Bonnie E. said:

The question comes in when quite a few people have left and there is business to be transacted. (I can't change this process for the upcoming convention.) If it is thought that there may not be representation from 70% of the lodges, can someone call for a roll call determination or does it only depend on the count at the beginning of the convention?

It does not only depend on the count at the beginning of the convention (unless the convention's rules so provide). If it is thought that there may not be representation from 70% of the lodges, it does seem a roll call of the lodges would be the best method of resolving this matter.