Previous Question

[Guest J Caldwell]

If someone correctly "Calls the question" can they change their mind and after a second to their "call" (but before the vote) can they withdraw their "call"?

If so, can the Chair (Moderator) "entertain the withdrawal of the Call to the Question"? If it has been used too early to get a good discussion of BOTH sides of an issue?

Some members do not want discussion and then we get an uninformed decision which is a breach of the member's responsibility to make informed decisions.

[Rob Elsman]

Before the chair states the question, the mover can withdraw his motion without permission. After the question has been stated by the chair, however, the permission of the assembly is required (majority vote).

[Richard Brown]

Agreeing with Mr. Elsman, it is immaterial  whether  the motion (or call) for the previous question has been seconded.  The permission of the person who seconded  the motion is not required.

[Atul Kapur]

On 5/22/2023 at 9:58 AM, Guest J Caldwell said:

If someone correctly "Calls the question" can they change their mind and after a second to their "call" (but before the vote) can they withdraw their "call"?

If so, can the Chair (Moderator) "entertain the withdrawal of the Call to the Question"? If it has been used too early to get a good discussion of BOTH sides of an issue?

Some members do not want discussion and then we get an uninformed decision which is a breach of the member's responsibility to make informed decisions.

From your description, I am concerned that your group is using Previous Question very differently than as described in RONR and I am not clear which vote you are referring to: is it a vote on whether to order the previous question or the vote on the motion under discussion?

(What raises this concern is the fact that it requires a 2/3 vote to order the previous question so the withdrawal is unnecessary as the group that would support the withdrawal could easily defeat the previous question).

I have seen several groups do it this way, so please let me know if that is what you do: 
Debate is underway on Main Motion X.
A member yells out "Question!" or "I call the question!".
Another member says, "Second!".
The Moderator says, "Question has been called." and then takes the vote on Main Motion X.

If that is the way that your group does it, then you need to have a special rule for that; otherwise, this contravenes RONR, ("Calls of 'Question!' by members from their seats are not motions for the Previous Question and are disorderly if another member is speaking or seeking recognition." 16:20)

Under RONR the process is:
A member is properly recognized and says, "I move the previous question."
Another member says, "Second!".
The Moderator says, "The previous question is moved and seconded." The chair may explain the motion if needed. "Those in favor of ordering the previous question on Main Motion X ..."

[Guest Reply to Mr Kapur]

A vote to order the previous question.

So, The member "calling the question" can remove his "call" before the Chair puts his "call" motion on the floor (once it's on the floor the motion belongs to the assembly, not the member making the motion so it needs a 2/3 vote).

In that case, it must mean that the Chair can entertain the withdrawal of the "call" thereby permitting additional discussion before a vote on the previous motion that was already on the floor and being discussed. 

I think that I understand.

Thanks to all.

JC

[Bruce Lages]

No, that's not quite the whole story. Certainly the member making the motion for the previous question can withdraw his motion unilaterally before the chair has stated the motion - at that time the motion still is under the maker's control. But after the chair has stated the motion, i.e., put the motion into the control of the assembly, the maker of the motion can still try to have the motion withdrawn, but now the member must request permission from the assembly to do so. Permission is usually handled by unanimous consent, unless someone objects, and then it requires a majority vote from the assembly to allow the motion to be withdrawn.

The 2/3 vote is required to adopt the previous question and cut off debate, leading to an immediate vote on the original 'question'.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 5/22/2023 at 9:58 AM, Guest J Caldwell said:

If someone correctly "Calls the question" can they change their mind and after a second to their "call" (but before the vote) can they withdraw their "call"?

If so, can the Chair (Moderator) "entertain the withdrawal of the Call to the Question"? If it has been used too early to get a good discussion of BOTH sides of an issue?

Some members do not want discussion and then we get an uninformed decision which is a breach of the member's responsibility to make informed decisions.

There is no way to correctly "Call the question.:  They can, instead, move the Previous Question, which requires a second, is neither debatable nor amendable, and requires a two-thirds vote for adoption.

Once the chair states the motion, it is too late to withdraw it unilaterally.  Besides, the process of withdrawing after seeking leave to withdraw would take longer than simply voting on ordering the previous question.  If more than a third of the members wish to continue debate, they will vote No, and debate will continue.  It sounds like you're allowing debate on an undebatable motion.

[Josh Martin]

On 5/22/2023 at 8:58 AM, Guest J Caldwell said:

If someone correctly "Calls the question" can they change their mind and after a second to their "call" (but before the vote) can they withdraw their "call"?

That would a very narrow window of time for someone to change their mind in, but yes, the member could unilaterally withdraw the motion for the Previous Question if they do so before the motion has been stated by the chair, or they could withdraw it after it has been stated by the chair (but before the vote) if no member objects or if the assembly grants the request by majority vote.

I would note, however, that nothing would prevent a different member from moving the Previous Question.

On 5/22/2023 at 8:58 AM, Guest J Caldwell said:

If so, can the Chair (Moderator) "entertain the withdrawal of the Call to the Question"? If it has been used too early to get a good discussion of BOTH sides of an issue?

The chair can and must entertain the withdrawal if it is properly made in a timely manner. Whether the withdrawal may be made unilaterally by the member or requires the consent of the assembly depends on the timing, as noted above.

Whether, in the chair's opinion, it "has been used too early to get a good discussion of BOTH sides of an issue" is immaterial. Whether it is time to order the Previous Question will ultimately be determined by the assembly, by vote. A 2/3 vote is required for adoption of the Previous Question.

The rules on this subject would be the same if the debate had gone on for hours and everyone was ready to jump out a window if it continued further. Robert's Rules is concerned with the procedures, not the merits of a particular decision - that's the assembly's problem.

On 5/22/2023 at 8:58 AM, Guest J Caldwell said:

Some members do not want discussion and then we get an uninformed decision which is a breach of the member's responsibility to make informed decisions.

Well, then members who want more discussion should vote against the Previous Question.

On 5/22/2023 at 1:37 PM, Guest Reply to Mr Kapur said:

So, The member "calling the question" can remove his "call" before the Chair puts his "call" motion on the floor (once it's on the floor the motion belongs to the assembly, not the member making the motion so it needs a 2/3 vote).

A 2/3 vote is required to adopt the Previous Question. Only a majority vote is required to approve a request to withdraw a motion.

On 5/22/2023 at 1:37 PM, Guest Reply to Mr Kapur said:

In that case, it must mean that the Chair can entertain the withdrawal of the "call" thereby permitting additional discussion before a vote on the previous motion that was already on the floor and being discussed. 

Yes, although I would replace "can" with "must." The chair does not have discretion in this matter. If the request for the withdrawal is in order at the time, the chair must entertain it.

Assuming the withdrawal of the Previous Question is granted by the assembly (or if the motion is withdrawn unilaterally by the member, if done early enough), then yes, discussion would continue on the pending motion.

Edited May 23, 2023 at 12:13 PM by Josh Martin

[Gary Novosielski]

On 5/23/2023 at 8:10 AM, Josh Martin said:

Yes, although I would replace "can" with "must." The chair does not have discretion in this matter. If the request for the withdrawal is in order at the time, the chair must entertain it.

 

I'm, reading this a bit differently, between the lines. 

By asking if the chair can entertain a motion to withdraw, I believe the OP is actually asking this: 

If a member moves the Previous Question and it is seconded, and the chair is convinced that not enough debate has occurred, can the chair, rather than stating and putting the question on the PQ, instead say,

"In the opinion of the chair, cutting off debate at this point would result in an uninformed decision, since not enough debate has taken place on BOTH sides of this issue to satisfy the chair.  Accordingly the chair would entertain a motion to withdraw this PQ motion.  <awkward pause while staring at the mover until a withdrawal request is made>    

It a known practice of some presiding officers to confuse entertain with solicit. And in that case, rather than say "must" I would say "may not."  The duty of the chair is to facilitate the motions that are made, not to substitute his or her own judgement for that of the assembly. 

[Josh Martin]

On 5/23/2023 at 11:31 AM, Gary Novosielski said:

I'm, reading this a bit differently, between the lines. 

By asking if the chair can entertain a motion to withdraw, I believe the OP is actually asking this: 

If a member moves the Previous Question and it is seconded, and the chair is convinced that not enough debate has occurred, can the chair, rather than stating and putting the question on the PQ, instead say,

"In the opinion of the chair, cutting off debate at this point would result in an uninformed decision, since not enough debate has taken place on BOTH sides of this issue to satisfy the chair.  Accordingly the chair would entertain a motion to withdraw this PQ motion.  <awkward pause while staring at the mover until a withdrawal request is made>    

It a known practice of some presiding officers to confuse entertain with solicit. And in that case, rather than say "must" I would say "may not."  The duty of the chair is to facilitate the motions that are made, not to substitute his or her own judgement for that of the assembly. 

Thank you. I agree that it is not appropriate for the chair to solicit a motion for withdrawing the Previous Question. I had understood "entertain" to mean "permit," but I agree that the "solicit" meaning is also quite common.