Problems with parliamentarian over stepping president

[ron wick]

The problem we are running into is our past president is now the parliamentarian and does not want to release the presidency to the new president. Can he be voted out or is there a better solution. trying to be diplomatic about this but it is causing confusion and arguing at the meetings. Any advice would be appreciated.

Ron

[Josh Martin]

On 6/7/2023 at 2:37 PM, ron wick said:

The problem we are running into is our past president is now the parliamentarian and does not want to release the presidency to the new president. Can he be voted out or is there a better solution. trying to be diplomatic about this but it is causing confusion and arguing at the meetings. Any advice would be appreciated.

Please answer the following:

• Do your bylaws provide some official position for the Past President? If so, what do your rules say on this position?
• What do your bylaws say regarding removal of officers?
• How is the parliamentarian selected?

[Gary Novosielski]

On 6/7/2023 at 3:37 PM, ron wick said:

The problem we are running into is our past president is now the parliamentarian and does not want to release the presidency to the new president. Can he be voted out or is there a better solution. trying to be diplomatic about this but it is causing confusion and arguing at the meetings. Any advice would be appreciated.

Ron

In what ways is the parliamentarian overstepping the president?  This sounds like something that could be cleared up with a single Point of Order, considering the following:   

23:17 [Regarding breaches of order.]
Before rendering his decision, the chair can consult the parliamentarian, if there is one. The chair can also request the advice of experienced members, but no one has the right to express such opinions in the meeting unless requested to do so by the chair.

47:46 Parliamentarian.
The parliamentarian is a consultant, commonly a professional, who advises the president and other officers, committees, and members on matters of parliamentary procedure. The parliamentarian’s role during a meeting is purely an advisory and consultative one—since parliamentary law gives to the chair alone the power to rule on questions of order or to answer parliamentary inquiries. 

<emphasis added>

Edited June 8, 2023 at 06:01 PM by Gary Novosielski

[Guest LCh]

Does the parliamentarian have to be voted out or since they were appointed by the presidents, can they be asked to step down? 

[Bruce Lages]

If your rules state that the parliamentarian is appointed by the president, there is no need to even ask - the president is free to remove that person from the position and appoint someone else.

[Rob Elsman]

The parliamentarian is just a resource person for the presiding officer.  He has the same obligation as other members not to argue with the presiding officer, and the assembly can eject him from the meeting hall if he causes disruption and disturbance.  My guess is that ejecting him once would solve the problem permanently, since the ejection would serve notice that the assembly intends to enforce the rules with him, just like it would enforce the rules with any other member.

Edited August 4, 2023 at 03:08 PM by Rob Elsman

[puzzling]

Maybe in a future edition it could be emphasised that during a meeting the parliamentarian is only advisory to the chair ('so during a meeting  not to the officers and other members)

[Atul Kapur]

What do you find lacking in 47:50 "During a meeting the work of the parliamentarian should be 
limited to giving advice to the chair and, when requested, to 
any other member." ?

Or, if your emphasis is on the advisory aspect, 47:46

"The parliamentarian’s role during a meeting is purely an advisory and consultative one—since parliamentary law gives to the chair alone the power to rule on questions of order or to answer parliamentary inquiries."?

[Jay M]

Can the majority of the board members bring a parliamentarian in to a meeting even the chair does not want it? 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 8/4/2023 at 4:51 PM, Jay M said:

Can the majority of the board members bring a parliamentarian in to a meeting even the chair does not want it? 

By a majority vote, the board may invite visitors to a meeting.  But just because the visitor is a parliamentarian would not confer any rights greater than any other visitor.  In particular, it would still be the presiding officer who would issue any rulings.

[Rob Elsman]

It sounds pretty useless to bring a parliamentarian when the chair does not want one.  I suspect what is really being asked is whether the chair has to suffer an argumentative and disruptive guest under the guise of being a parliamentarian, and the answer is "no".

[Atul Kapur]

On 8/4/2023 at 8:07 PM, Rob Elsman said:

It sounds pretty useless to bring a parliamentarian when the chair does not want one.

There is a role known as "floor parliamentarian" who is engaged by a group of members to assist them to further their goals. This person advises the group, not the chair.

[Josh Martin]

On 8/4/2023 at 2:10 PM, puzzling said:

Maybe in a future edition it could be emphasised that during a meeting the parliamentarian is only advisory to the chair ('so during a meeting  not to the officers and other members)

I think this is pretty well emphasized already.

It is correct that many organizations do seem confused about the role of the parliamentarian, and mistakenly believe the parliamentarian's role is to serve as the enforcer of the rules and as a "check" on the chair, but I don't think the text in RONR is at fault in this regard.

On 8/4/2023 at 3:51 PM, Jay M said:

Can the majority of the board members bring a parliamentarian in to a meeting even the chair does not want it? 

The purpose of a parliamentarian, as that term is used in RONR, is to serve as an advisor to the chair on parliamentary procedure. There seems to be little purpose in having such a person at the meeting against the chair's will, since the chair will simply ignore the parliamentarian's advice.

There is also, however, a role not discussed in RONR but known as a "floor parliamentarian," as Dr. Kapur notes. This could be done even without the chair's permission.

Could you elaborate, however, on precisely what leads to this problem? I would expect the ultimate solution may be to get a new chair. As noted above, the parliamentarian (whether in the ordinary sense or the "floor parliamentarian") is simply an advisor. The ultimate decisions on questions of procedure are up to the chair, subject to appeal to the assembly.

[J. J.]

On 8/5/2023 at 12:10 AM, Atul Kapur said:

There is a role known as "floor parliamentarian" who is engaged by a group of members to assist them to further their goals. This person advises the group, not the chair.

He is also called a "coup master." 

[puzzling]

On 8/4/2023 at 9:28 PM, Atul Kapur said:

What do you find lacking in 47:50 "During a meeting the work of the parliamentarian should be 
limited to giving advice to the chair and, when requested, to 
any other member." ?

Or, if your emphasis is on the advisory aspect, 47:46

"The parliamentarian’s role during a meeting is purely an advisory and consultative one—since parliamentary law gives to the chair alone the power to rule on questions of order or to answer parliamentary inquiries."?

The confusing originates in the first line of the duties of a parliamentarian.

(Outside a meeting, in general) the parliamentarizn advises the president and other officers, committees, and members on matters of parliamentary procedure.

While during a meeting his role is only to advice the chair. 

It is just a minor tweak to make  more clear the distinctions between the situations.

[Josh Martin]

On 8/5/2023 at 8:59 PM, puzzling said:

The confusing originates in the first line of the duties of a parliamentarian.

(Outside a meeting, in general) the parliamentarizn advises the president and other officers, committees, and members on matters of parliamentary procedure.

While during a meeting his role is only to advice the chair. 

It is just a minor tweak to make  more clear the distinctions between the situations.

I don't believe there is anything confusing about this. It seems to me the text is quite clear on this matter if 47:46-56 is read in its entirety, rather than relying solely upon the introductory paragraph. Indeed, it seems to me the very next paragraph makes the distinction clear in regards to the parliamentarian's duties inside and outside of meetings.

"A small local organization should rarely require the services of a parliamentarian, unless it undertakes a general revision of its bylaws; but for large assemblies and conventions or organizations where the transaction of business is apt to be complex, it is advisable to engage one. Some state or national organizations find it advisable to employ a parliamentarian throughout the year to assist with any questions that may arise in interpreting bylaws and rules, or in connection with the work of the board and of officers or committees. In such a case, the parliamentarian's duties extend beyond giving opinions to the presiding officer during meetings, and may include assisting in the planning and steering of business to be introduced." RONR (12th ed.) 47:45

But to the extent you believe some "tweak" in the section on the description of the duties of the parliamentarian is necessary, what wording, exactly, are you suggesting?

Edited August 7, 2023 at 12:40 PM by Josh Martin

[puzzling]

On 8/7/2023 at 1:40 PM, Josh Martin said:

But to the extent you believe some "tweak" in the section on the description of the duties of the parliamentarian is necessary, what wording, exactly, are you suggesting?

I would suggest to replace in 47:46 the last  sentence "the parliamentarians rule during a meeting ... with:

" During a meeting the parliamentarians role is only advisory and cunsultative to the chair.  Only the chair has the power to answer parliamentary inquiries (33:3 -5) and to rule on points of order. (23)" 

Maybe here also add an paragraph on the "floor parliamentarian" refering to 9:23

In 47:50 replace "when requested, to any other member." With

"When requested by the chair, to any other member.

In, 47:55 add" see also 23:17 for an alternative method to get advice of getting advice from members on parliamentary questions"

I know the last three tweaks  are not completely worked out but it is a start.(i hope)

[Josh Martin]

On 8/7/2023 at 12:23 PM, puzzling said:

I would suggest to replace in 47:46 the last  sentence "the parliamentarians rule during a meeting ... with:

" During a meeting the parliamentarians role is only advisory and cunsultative to the chair.  Only the chair has the power to answer parliamentary inquiries (33:3 -5) and to rule on points of order. (23)" 

Maybe here also add an paragraph on the "floor parliamentarian" refering to 9:23

In 47:50 replace "when requested, to any other member." With

"When requested by the chair, to any other member.

In, 47:55 add" see also 23:17 for an alternative method to get advice of getting advice from members on parliamentary questions"

I know the last three tweaks  are not completely worked out but it is a start.(i hope)

I am not entirely certain how the proposed language for 47:46 is substantively different from the language already in the text.

"The parliamentarian's role during a meeting is purely an advisory and consultative one—since parliamentary law gives to the chair alone the power to rule on questions of order or to answer parliamentary inquiries." RONR (12th ed.) 47:46

I would concur that clarifying that the "request" referred to in 47:50 comes from the chair would be beneficial. As you suggest, adding some language and cross-reference referring to 23:17 may also be beneficial.

I am not certain about adding language concerning a "floor parliamentarian," and to the extent this is added, I do not think the reference to 9:23 (which refers to postponing business that the bylaws require to be attended to at a particular meeting) is applicable.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 8/7/2023 at 1:23 PM, puzzling said:

I would suggest to replace in 47:46 the last  sentence "the parliamentarians rule during a meeting ... with:

" During a meeting the parliamentarians role is only advisory and cunsultative to the chair.  Only the chair has the power to answer parliamentary inquiries (33:3 -5) and to rule on points of order. (23)" 

Maybe here also add an paragraph on the "floor parliamentarian" refering to 9:23

In 47:50 replace "when requested, to any other member." With

"When requested by the chair, to any other member.

In, 47:55 add" see also 23:17 for an alternative method to get advice of getting advice from members on parliamentary questions"

I know the last three tweaks  are not completely worked out but it is a start.(i hope)

I think it's perfectly clear as it stands now.

[puzzling]

On 8/7/2023 at 6:59 PM, Josh Martin said:

I am not certain about adding language concerning a "floor parliamentarian," and to the extent this is added, I do not think the reference to 9:23 (which refers to postponing business that the bylaws require to be attended to at a particular meeting) is applicable

I wanted that in a paragraph for a floor-parliamentarian it was made clear that he is a nonmember guest and that RONR  61:19 and so apply 

[Josh Martin]

On 8/8/2023 at 7:22 AM, puzzling said:

I wanted that in a paragraph for a floor-parliamentarian it was made clear that he is a nonmember guest and that RONR  61:19 and so apply 

I concur that 61:19 is a more applicable citation for that principle. If you were looking for something in Section 9 on that subject, perhaps 9:28 is what you were looking for.

[puzzling]

On 8/8/2023 at 1:48 PM, Josh Martin said:

I concur that 61:19 is a more applicable citation for that principle. If you were looking for something in Section 9 on that subject, perhaps 9:28 is what you were looking for.

I think i was but then realised that 9:28-29 is about public sessions , and i could not find the same in rules about normal and executive meetings (that the assembly by majority may allow and remove  non members) is a bit far hidden in RONR  and they do (also) apply to floor parliamentarians.