Draft Minutes

[Wright Stuff]

Can the Executive Committee require the Secretary to distribute her draft minutes within two weeks following the quarterly meeting? Since 41:12 states that the Secretary's draft does not become the (official) minutes unless it is approved by the members, can the Executive Committee require the Secretary to distribute her notes, which is all they are? There is no provision in the bylaws requiring distribution of the (draft) minutes prior to the next meeting. 

[J. J.]

On 7/26/2023 at 1:14 PM, Wright Stuff said:

Can the Executive Committee require the Secretary to distribute her draft minutes within two weeks following the quarterly meeting? Since 41:12 states that the Secretary's draft does not become the (official) minutes unless it is approved by the members, can the Executive Committee require the Secretary to distribute her notes, which is all they are? There is no provision in the bylaws requiring distribution of the (draft) minutes prior to the next meeting. 

The assembly clearly could instruct an officer to perform a duty within a specific time frame.  I am not clear if the minutes are those of the Executive Committee.

[Josh Martin]

On 7/26/2023 at 12:14 PM, Wright Stuff said:

Can the Executive Committee require the Secretary to distribute her draft minutes within two weeks following the quarterly meeting?

Assuming the minutes in question are minutes of Executive Committee meetings, yes.

On 7/26/2023 at 12:14 PM, Wright Stuff said:

Since 41:12 states that the Secretary's draft does not become the (official) minutes unless it is approved by the members, can the Executive Committee require the Secretary to distribute her notes, which is all they are?

Yes.

[Wright Stuff]

On 7/26/2023 at 3:17 PM, Josh Martin said:

Assuming the minutes in question are minutes of Executive Committee meetings, yes.

They are not the minutes of the Executive Committee until they are approved by the Executive Committee.

[rulesasker]

They are "the secretary's draft of the minutes" referred to in 41:12. Whatever you want to call them, the Exec Comm can direct its secretary to carry out duties like send them in advance so that they may be approved more easily.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 7/26/2023 at 1:14 PM, Wright Stuff said:

Can the Executive Committee require the Secretary to distribute her draft minutes within two weeks following the quarterly meeting? Since 41:12 states that the Secretary's draft does not become the (official) minutes unless it is approved by the members, can the Executive Committee require the Secretary to distribute her notes, which is all they are? There is no provision in the bylaws requiring distribution of the (draft) minutes prior to the next meeting. 

Probably not.  

It would depend on how the Secretary's duties are defined in the bylaws.  By default, RONR only requires that the draft minutes be read at the next meeting.  Do the bylaws say anything about the secretary having the duty to carry out instructions of the EC?    Usually an officer must accept instructions issued by the general assembly but not necessarily by the board or EC.

Edited July 26, 2023 at 08:21 PM by Gary Novosielski

[Josh Martin]

On 7/26/2023 at 3:06 PM, Wright Stuff said:

They are not the minutes of the Executive Committee until they are approved by the Executive Committee.

Yes, I understand completely. I apologize for not saying "draft minutes."

The point I was trying to make is that the Executive Committee has the authority to order minutes (or drafts thereof) of its own meetings to be distributed, but would not have such authority with regard to meetings of a different assembly.

It is not unusual for an assembly to order draft minutes to be distributed in advance of their approval. Many organizations do this. It would be best to clearly mark them as a draft, of course.

It seems you may be hinting at an idea that the draft minutes are the personal property of the Secretary until they are approved. I strongly disagree with this idea.

On 7/26/2023 at 3:19 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Probably not.  

It would depend on how the Secretary's duties are defined in the bylaws.  By default, RONR only requires that the draft minutes be read at the next meeting.  Do the bylaws say anything about the secretary having the duty to carry out instructions of the EC?    Usually an officer must accept instructions issued by the general assembly but not necessarily by the board or EC.

I disagree. As I understand the facts, the Secretary in question serves not only as the Secretary of the general membership, but also serves as the Secretary of the Executive Committee. It would seem to me that the Executive Committee at least has the authority to order drafts of minutes of its own meetings to be distributed two weeks after the meetings, even without explicit authorization in the bylaws for the Executive Committee to issue orders to officers. This relates to the Secretary's duties as secretary for the Executive Committee, and not to the officer's broader duties as Secretary of the full organization.

Certainly, the full board or the membership could adopt their own rules on this matter, which would supersede any conflicting instructions from the Executive Committee. But in the absence of such rules, the Executive Committee is in charge of its own minutes, and drafts thereof.

Edited July 26, 2023 at 08:54 PM by Josh Martin

[Gary Novosielski]

On 7/26/2023 at 4:49 PM, Josh Martin said:

I disagree. As I understand the facts, the Secretary in question serves not only as the Secretary of the general membership, but also serves as the Secretary of the Executive Committee. It would seem to me that the Executive Committee at least has the authority to order drafts of minutes of its own meetings to be distributed two weeks after the meetings, even without explicit authorization in the bylaws for the Executive Committee to issue orders to officers. This relates to the Secretary's duties as secretary for the Executive Committee, and not to the officer's broader duties as Secretary of the full organization.

Certainly, the full board or the membership could adopt their own rules on this matter, which would supersede any conflicting instructions from the Executive Committee. But in the absence of such rules, the Executive Committee is in charge of its own minutes, and drafts thereof.

Okay, I'll grant that, but I still think it would be worth a look at the secretary's duties as described in the bylaws.  Suppose the EC wanted to issue instructions that the draft must be completed by the next morning?

Edited July 26, 2023 at 09:09 PM by Gary Novosielski

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

On 7/26/2023 at 3:03 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Okay, I'll grant that, but I still think it would be worth a look at the secretary's duties as described in the bylaws.  Suppose the EC wanted to issue instructions that the draft must be completed by the next morning?

Put aside EC for a moment, in a multi-day convention absent, that is in fact the rule absent a special rule of order to the contrary.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 7/26/2023 at 5:57 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos said:

Put aside EC for a moment, in a multi-day convention absent, that is in fact the rule absent a special rule of order to the contrary.

Fair point, but an event with a stated program is somewhat easier to record, comparatively speaking. Just scribble in the result on the program. Still, that's not a bad reason to wriggle out of being the secretary of a convention.  That, and the toll that repeated long roll-call balloting can take on the voice.

[J. J.]

On 7/26/2023 at 4:49 PM, Josh Martin said:

I disagree. As I understand the facts, the Secretary in question serves not only as the Secretary of the general membership, but also serves as the Secretary of the Executive Committee. It would seem to me that the Executive Committee at least has the authority to order drafts of minutes of its own meetings to be distributed two weeks after the meetings, even without explicit authorization in the bylaws for the Executive Committee to issue orders to officers. This relates to the Secretary's duties as secretary for the Executive Committee, and not to the officer's broader duties as Secretary of the full organization.

Certainly, the full board or the membership could adopt their own rules on this matter, which would supersede any conflicting instructions from the Executive Committee. But in the absence of such rules, the Executive Committee is in charge of its own minutes, and drafts thereof.

I agree with your disagreement.  This was the reason for my original question. 

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

On 7/26/2023 at 4:10 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Fair point, but an event with a stated program is somewhat easier to record, comparatively speaking. Just scribble in the result on the program. Still, that's not a bad reason to wriggle out of being the secretary of a convention.  That, and the toll that repeated long roll-call balloting can take on the voice.

LOL convention minutes are ... not easy.  But again it could just be the nature of experience with the organization I am involved with.  So glad we have a bylaw that supersedes that because this Secretary is not producing minutes overnight.

[Josh Martin]

On 7/26/2023 at 4:03 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Okay, I'll grant that, but I still think it would be worth a look at the secretary's duties as described in the bylaws.  Suppose the EC wanted to issue instructions that the draft must be completed by the next morning?

I do not see any parliamentary rule which would prevent this.

As to concerns about whether duties imposed on the Secretary are a practical and reasonable expectation, that will be a negotiation between the EC and the Secretary, and the EC will need to balance its wishes to have draft minutes available quickly with what it can reasonably expect of a volunteer.

Edited July 27, 2023 at 11:30 AM by Josh Martin