Changing proposed bylaw amendments

[Guest Prequel Susan]

My organization requires 40 day notice for proposed bylaw amendments. This notice was given, and we held a forum for the members. Based on feedback from the forum, we would like to tweak some of the proposed amendments. We are putting forth. We are supposed to vote next week. Can these changes be made on the date of voting? They do not change the scope of the amendment. Currents bylaw to not provide guidance on this.

[Joshua Katz]

On 8/3/2023 at 7:21 PM, Guest Prequel Susan said:

They do not change the scope of the amendment.

Do you happen to mean that they are within scope of notice? If so, then the amendments can be made at the meeting. If not, what do you mean?

[rulesasker]

The amendments may not “increase the modification of the article or provision to be amended.” See 57:11. This needs to be done by moving the amendments to the proposed amendments at the meeting.
 

If a majority of the membership is present you can make any amendment to the proposed amendments.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 8/3/2023 at 8:58 PM, rulesasker said:

If a majority of the membership is present you can make any amendment to the proposed amendments.

That's a bit of a stretch.  Are you assuming that previous notice is not required for these amendments?  We've been told that 40 days previous notice is required.  Any motion beyond the scope of that notice would destroy the previous notice, and therefore not be in order.

[Guest Guest Prequel Susan]

On 8/3/2023 at 9:25 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

That's a bit of a stretch.  Are you assuming that previous notice is not required for these amendments?  We've been told that 40 days previous notice is required.  Any motion beyond the scope of that notice would destroy the previous notice, and therefore not be in order.

So ANY change to the proposed amendments would require another 40 day notice?

[rulesasker]

On 8/3/2023 at 9:25 PM, Guest Guest Prequel Susan said:

So ANY change to the proposed amendments would require another 40 day notice?

Gary is correct that, if a majority of the membership is present, only amendments within the scope of the notice is allowed. 
 

But if a majority of the membership is not present, there is a further limitation. The amendment may not “increase the modification of the article or provision to be amended.” Suppose the notice was for an amendment to increase dues by $15. An amendment to increase them by $20 is within scope, so you could do it with a majority of the membership.
 

But if you do not have a majority of the membership, $20 is an increase in the modification, so it is not allowed. But an increase by $10 is allowed. 

Edited August 4, 2023 at 03:01 AM by rulesasker

[Atul Kapur]

@rulesasker appears to be confusing a couple of different situations. I respectfully suggest you ignore the post immediately above.

You tell us that

On 8/3/2023 at 8:21 PM, Guest Prequel Susan said:

My organization requires 40 day notice for proposed bylaw amendments.

So all bylaw amendments require 40-day notice in your organization. (RONR has an alternative if notice is not required but this alternative does not appear to be available to your organization because your bylaws requires notice and the bylaws supercede RONR).

But that does not mean that "ANY change to the proposed amendments would require another 40 day notice"

The important concept is Scope of Notice. The principle is that the proposal (the bylaws amendment) cannot be amended to go beyond the change that was noticed. Let's use the example of a dues increase. If you give notice to amend the bylaws (the proposal) to increase dues by $10 a year, then at the meeting the proposal can be amended from a $10 increase to any number between zero and $10. An amendment to increase dues by > $10 or to decrease dues would be out of order because it's outside of the scope of notice. (An amendment to reduce the dues increase to zero would be out of order because it would be the same as voting against the proposal).

See RONR (12th ed.) 57:11 for the full description and another example.

 

So, to make a long story longer,

Quote

we would like to tweak some of the proposed amendments. We are putting forth. We are supposed to vote next week. Can these changes be made on the date of voting? They do not change the scope of the amendment.

If the "tweaks" or "changes" (officially called amendments to the proposed bylaws amendment) are within the Scope of Notice then you can move them at the meeting.

Quote

Currents bylaw to not provide guidance on this.

If your current bylaws adopt RONR as your parliamentary authority, then the rules within that book are all the guidance you need.

Edited August 4, 2023 at 04:20 AM by Atul Kapur

[puzzling]

In addition to mr Kapurs very good post.

The bylaws amendment that needs to be moved (put before the meeting to debate) must in first instance be the bylaws amendment as it was stated in the notice.

The mover of the motion can then in his first talk move an amendment to replace the bylaws amendment to the newer version.

To change the notified bylaws amendment  to the newer bylaws amendment  needs a majority vote, and also this version can be changed by further amendments by the meeting. (As long as the amendments are within scope)

When the bylaws amendment is improved so that it can be incorporated in the bylaws it needs a final vote for adoption as discribed in your bylaws (most likely a 2/3 vote)

A quorum of a majority of the membership is only required if the bylaws don't prescribe a lower quorum. (Most times they do)

[Rob Elsman]

On 8/4/2023 at 2:18 AM, puzzling said:

...as it was stated in the notice.

What if the notice did not convey the motion verbatim?

On 8/4/2023 at 2:18 AM, puzzling said:

...in his first talk...

But not in a second or later speech?

[Gary Novosielski]

On 8/3/2023 at 10:55 PM, rulesasker said:

Suppose the notice was for an amendment to increase dues by $15. An amendment to increase them by $20 is within scope

That certainly seems to exceed the scope by about five bucks.

 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 8/3/2023 at 10:25 PM, Guest Guest Prequel Susan said:

So ANY change to the proposed amendments would require another 40 day notice?

No.  any change (amendment) to the proposals that remained within the scope of the original notice would not require additional notice. 

Scope of notice is a somewhat nuanced topic.  For a comprehensive view, see 35:2(6), 35:4, 56:50, 57:1(2), 57:4–5, and 57:10–13.

But the essence is this:  Suppose you were a person who had received this notice, looked it over, and decided that, as far as you were concerned, nothing in the proposed amendments affects you so strongly that you are willing to reschedule a haircut appointment so you can attend the meeting and speak or vote on the proposal, either in support or opposition, or perhaps just to attend to ask questions about it. Your attitude is strongly "yeah whatever". 

But after the meeting, you hear about a "tweak" to one of the proposed amendments that was passed at the meeting.  Your reaction to that is "Woah! If I had known that could happen, I would have shown up bigtime!  But that notice never gave me any clue!"  This is the situation that the scope-of-notice rule is designed to prevent.  If there's a proposal for a ten dollar dues increase, you might shrug it off, and if you later find that dues were only increased by five bucks, you're going to be fine with that.  But if the dues were to increase by $700, you might have a different reaction. That's because such an increase would exceed the scope of the original notice. 

And that's why amendments like that are not in order, while those that remain within the scope are.

[puzzling]

On 8/4/2023 at 2:39 PM, Rob Elsman said:

What if the notice did not convey the motion verbatim?

But not in a second or later speech?

- You are right I supposed that the notice included the bylaw amendment verbatim (how else would the membership know there was a difference between the bylaw amendment at the time of the notice and the bylawsl amendment at the time of the meeting.) 

But even if the bylaw amendment was only to increase the annual dues from $20 to $40 the motion moved  should be to increase it to $40 (and not for example to $35)

 

- It could be in a later speech but i think that would create a chaotic debate, but in principle it could be done,there is no rule that prohibits it.

 

 

[Joshua Katz]

On 8/4/2023 at 2:03 PM, puzzling said:

- You are right I supposed that the notice included the bylaw amendment verbatim (how else would the membership know there was a difference between the bylaw amendment at the time of the notice and the bylawsl amendment at the time of the meeting.) 

 

Because the description of the change would say something like "increasing dues from their current $20 to $40." It would need to be specific enough to let people know what's happening, and if it's changed, something else is happening. 

On 8/4/2023 at 2:03 PM, puzzling said:

But even if the bylaw amendment was only to increase the annual dues from $20 to $40 the motion moved  should be to increase it to $40 (and not for example to $35)

 

I'm sorry, I don't know what this means.

 

On 8/4/2023 at 2:03 PM, puzzling said:

- It could be in a later speech but i think that would create a chaotic debate, but in principle it could be done,there is no rule that prohibits it.

 

I've been to plenty of meetings where motions to amend were made, but not in the first speech after the motion was made, and chaos has (usually) not broken out. When chaos broke out, this wasn't the reason.

[Atul Kapur]

On 8/4/2023 at 3:03 PM, puzzling said:

But even if the bylaw amendment was only to increase the annual dues from $20 to $40 the motion moved  should be to increase it to $40 (and not for example to $35)

I disagree. Assume that any individual member can move to amend the bylaws and that previous notice is required.

Say that I give notice that at the next meeting I will move to increase dues from $20 to $40, but between meetings realize that the increase does not need to be so much. It would be completely in order for me to actually move at the next meeting to increase dues from $20 to $35. An amendment to my motion to strike $35 and insert $40 would be in order as being within scope of notice.

But there is no need for me to move an increase to $40 then move to amend my own motion to $35.

Edited August 4, 2023 at 08:12 PM by Atul Kapur

[Gary Novosielski]

On 8/4/2023 at 3:03 PM, puzzling said:

But even if the bylaw amendment was only to increase the annual dues from $20 to $40 the motion moved  should be to increase it to $40 (and not for example to $35)

Why?  That amount is certainly within the scope of the notice.