Substitute Motion

[Guest Councilmember at Large]

I am having trouble finding any information about making and accepting subtitute motions. For several years a divided faction has used "substitute motions" to change the direction of the topic to their advantage.

Here is an example:

After a public hearing on an item, the item is brought back to the council for action. Usually a motion is duly made and seconded to act on the item. (for discussion sake, let's say to adopt the acceptance of grant money to be spent for police vehicle improvements), before a vote is taken on the motion and second, another member of the council, duly recognized, asks the council president to accept a substitute motion for the one already on the table. (let's say the same grant monies to be spent on parks and recreation not police vehicle improvements)

My questions are:

1) What is required to substitute the first motion on the table?

2) Does the original motion maker and second have to accept the substitute motion for it to have validity?

3) How many subtitute motions can be made on one item or discussion topic? ie Can the first motion maker and second, after a substitute motion is made, resubstitute back to the original intent? Or what actions are required?

It probably sounds confusing, but I'm trying to understand the process of substitute motions better. I understand Motions and amendments and thought a substitute motion needed the approval of the maker and second to be accepted for discussion or vote. Am I wrong?

Any help is appreciated...

Councilmember ...

[Robert B Fish]

#1-The member should move that the substitute motion becomes the main motion. The motion to amend requires a second, is debatable, and requires a majority vote for approval. If approvde, at that point the subssitute motion becomes the main motion and debate returns to the non pending motion.

#2-No.

#3-No rule in RONR limits the number of times a motion can be amended while it is being "prefected." However, an amendment cannot require the assembly to vote more than once on what is substantially the same question. In other words, you could not move to amend the motin back to the previous form except by the motion to reconsider but you could move to reduce the total amount in the proposal to $1 since that is a different questin.

After reading your questions, I'm wondering if a majority of your council are agreeing to the substitute amendments. If not, there's your problem.

-Bob

[Chris Harrison]

That amendment sounds proper although it sounds more like an amendment of striking out and inserting. There is a whole chapter on amending a motion which also deals with striking out and inserting and substitutes. See RONR pp. 125-160 and in particular pp. 142-146 (strike out and insert) and pp. 146-154 (substitute).

[hmtcastle]

I understand Motions and amendments

Then you understand substitute motions, which are just a form of amendment.

[Guest Councilmember at Large]

Then you understand substitute motions, which are just a form of amendment.

in other words...

What is the difference between a substitute motion and an amendement?

Suppose I make a motion and it's seconded to accept the grant funds for police vehicles. After discussion, another councilmember recommends the funds be used for Parks and Recreation.

a) If amended to Parks and Rec, wouldn't the amendment to the first motion have to be accepted by the maker and second? Then the amendment voted on.

If substituted to Parks and Rec, why does the original motion made have no merit?

I may sound confused, because I am. But why would anyone on a minority side of a board, ever want to make a motion, if every time all the majority had to do was substitute for what they want?

[J. J.]

in other words...

What is the difference between a substitute motion and an amendement?

Suppose I make a motion and it's seconded to accept the grant funds for police vehicles. After discussion, another councilmember recommends the funds be used for Parks and Recreation.

a) If amended to Parks and Rec, wouldn't the amendment to the first motion have to be accepted by the maker and second? Then the amendment voted on.

If substituted to Parks and Rec, why does the original motion made have no merit?

I may sound confused, because I am. But why would anyone on a minority side of a board, ever want to make a motion, if every time all the majority had to do was substitute for what they want?

A. No. Once the motion is made, it may be amended without the consent of either the maker or the seconder.

B. The assembly, by substituting another motion, has determined that it should consider the substitute, not the motion as originally made.

[hmtcastle]

in other words...

What is the difference between a substitute motion and an amendement?

Suppose I make a motion and it's seconded to accept the grant funds for police vehicles. After discussion, another councilmember recommends the funds be used for Parks and Recreation.

a) If amended to Parks and Rec, wouldn't the amendment to the first motion have to be accepted by the maker and second? Then the amendment voted on.

If substituted to Parks and Rec, why does the original motion made have no merit?

I may sound confused, because I am. But why would anyone on a minority side of a board, ever want to make a motion, if every time all the majority had to do was substitute for what they want?

Amendments must be "germane" to the original motion, but that allows for a fairly wide latitude. For example, a motion to "commend" can be amended into a motion to "censure". See pp.129-131.

[hmtcastle]

why would anyone on a minority side of a board, ever want to make a motion, if every time all the majority had to do was substitute for what they want?

You could just as well ask why any member in the minority would make a motion at all.

The amendment process allows a motion to be "perfected" into something the majority might support. That's how business gets done.

[David A Foulkes]

in other words...

What is the difference between a substitute motion and an amendement?

Suppose I make a motion and it's seconded to accept the grant funds for police vehicles. After discussion, another councilmember recommends the funds be used for Parks and Recreation.

a) If amended to Parks and Rec, wouldn't the amendment to the first motion have to be accepted by the maker and second? Then the amendment voted on.

If substituted to Parks and Rec, why does the original motion made have no merit?

I may sound confused, because I am. But why would anyone on a minority side of a board, ever want to make a motion, if every time all the majority had to do was substitute for what they want?

I think a key element here you might be missing is that once the first motion is stated by the Chair (after any appropriate second), the motion belongs to the assembly now. The maker A and seconder B have done their part and retain no ownership to the motion. Should another member C want to amend the motion as you described, it needs no approval from A or B.

As for the majority getting "what they want"...... we don't really need to explain that, do we??

[Guest Councilmember at Large]

I think a key element here you might be missing is that once the first motion is stated by the Chair (after any appropriate second), the motion belongs to the assembly now. The maker A and seconder B have done their part and retain no ownership to the motion.

I thought I understood motions. Thanks for the clarifications.

[Josh Martin]

But why would anyone on a minority side of a board, ever want to make a motion, if every time all the majority had to do was substitute for what they want?

A few possibilities come to mind at the moment. The member may be unaware that he is in the minority, or he may believe that through debate he can convince other members to see the merit of his position, and thus the minority will become the majority. He may believe that some form of compromise may be reached. The motion may be unpopular in the council but popular in the council member's constituency, and thus making the motion may help his chances of reelection.

Ultimately, of course, it is the majority that will determine the assembly's course of action.