Done AND Said

[David A Foulkes]

Page 451, lines 25-28, suggest that when minutes are published, they should not only indicate what was done at a meeting, but what was said by the members.

I infer from this that:

A) the term "published" is used in the context of making the minutes available outside the assembly, to non-members, or even the public, through some means (bulletin board posting, online page, printed in the paper, etc.), and

B ) that the minutes should include at least enough of the what-was-said parts to clarify the what-was-done parts.

Is this an accurate reading of that sentence?

[Edited to turn back to B )]

[George Mervosh]

No.

[Rob Elsman]

There are some professional, scientific, philosophical, theological, and similar societies where a large part of each meeting is devoted to the presentation of scholarly papers and lectures. The publication of the proceedings of such bodies is appropriate, since the presentations and lectures will be of interest to the wider community of persons interested in these fields. Typically, these journals of proceedings are bound in large volumes and distributed mainly to research libraries for reference.

[David A Foulkes]

There are some professional, scientific, philosophical, theological, and similar societies where a large part of each meeting is devoted to the presentation of scholarly papers and lectures. The publication of the proceedings of such bodies is appropriate, since the presentations and lectures will be of interest to the wider community of persons interested in these fields. Typically, these journals of proceedings are bound in large volumes and distributed mainly to research libraries for reference.

"In an ordinary society, unless the minutes are to be published, they should contain mainly a record of what was done at the meeting, not what was said by the members." (p. 451 ll. 25-28) [emphasis added]

So, while we may want to include "professional, scientific, philosophical, theological, and similar societies", this passage refers to an "ordinary society." So, if an "ordinary society" is going to publish its minutes, should it then still not include the what-was-said parts? And if not, why is the above emphasized phrase included at all?

[Rob Elsman]

"In an ordinary society, unless the minutes are to be published, they should contain mainly a record of what was done at the meeting, not what was said by the members." (p. 451 ll. 25-28) [emphasis added]

So, while we may want to include "professional, scientific, philosophical, theological, and similar societies", this passage refers to an "ordinary society." So, if an "ordinary society" is going to publish its minutes, should it then still not include the what-was-said parts? And if not, why is the above emphasized phrase included at all?

The confusion that periodically arises over the matter of published minutes has to do with the way that "publish" has come to be casually used. It seems that, nowadays, anyone who can use a word processor to prepare a sheet of anything is publishing. The authors had something else in mind, I think.

[hmtcastle]

why is the above emphasized phrase included at all?

Because it was used in the previous edition. And in the edition before that. And in the edition before that. And I suspect it will be used in the next edition, and for the same reason.

[Dan Honemann]

Because it was used in the previous edition. And in the edition before that. And in the edition before that. And I suspect it will be used in the next edition, and for the same reason.

Don't bet on it.

[Mr. J!]

Don't bet on it.

Well, if I were a betting man, I would bet the odds have just changed.

[David A Foulkes]

RONR places a very high value on custom, absent a rule, in this matter (and others).

Because it was used in the previous edition. And in the edition before that. And in the edition before that. And I suspect it will be used in the next edition, and for the same reason.

Perhaps this is the highly valued custom to which Mr. Mervosh refers? (Mr. Mervosh's quote taken from this thread.]

[Tim Wynn]

Don't bet on it.

Instead of saying, "Don't bet on it," wouldn't it be more fair to send me an e-mail advising which way to bet, so that I could then take up Mr. Mountcastle on any pertinent wagers?

[David A Foulkes]

Because it was used in the previous edition. And in the edition before that. And in the edition before that. And I suspect it will be used in the next edition, and for the same reason.

Don't bet on it.

And so, Mr. H - until the 11th appears, is there any substance to my interpretation of cited reference as noted in my original post? Or am I still hearing zebras, and not horses?

[Dan Honemann]

And so, Mr. H - until the 11th appears, is there any substance to my interpretation of cited reference as noted in my original post?

No.

[George Mervosh]

No.

Where did I read that answer before?

[Dan Honemann]

Where did I read that answer before?

I admit it's shameless plagiarism.

[Josh Martin]

"In an ordinary society, unless the minutes are to be published, they should contain mainly a record of what was done at the meeting, not what was said by the members." (p. 451 ll. 25-28) [emphasis added]

So, while we may want to include "professional, scientific, philosophical, theological, and similar societies", this passage refers to an "ordinary society." So, if an "ordinary society" is going to publish its minutes, should it then still not include the what-was-said parts? And if not, why is the above emphasized phrase included at all?

If the minutes of a society are "published" in the sense RONR uses the term, then the minutes should follow the rules in RONR, 10th ed., pg. 458, lines 18-36. As Mr. Elsman has explained, however, the term "published" is intended to have a much narrower meaning than the general use of the term, because technology develops much more quickly than RONR. This disconnect has caused endless confusion for members of assemblies and professional parliamentarians, and has been a frequent topic of discussion on this forum. There have, however, been rumors that the 11th edition will either clarify what RONR means by "published minutes" or will scrap it altogether, and I'd be quite pleased with either outcome.

I'm also not sure why you think "professional, scientific, philosophical, theological, and similar societies" are not "ordinary societies." It seems clear from RONR, 10th ed., pg. 451, lines 23-28 that the term "ordinary society" is used to distinguish "ordinary societies" from legislative bodies.

[David A Foulkes]

If the minutes of a society are "published" in the sense RONR uses the term, then the minutes should follow the rules in RONR, 10th ed., pg. 458, lines 18-36. As Mr. Elsman has explained, however, the term "published" is intended to have a much narrower meaning than the general use of the term, because technology develops much more quickly than RONR. This disconnect has caused endless confusion for members of assemblies and professional parliamentarians, and has been a frequent topic of discussion on this forum. There have, however, been rumors that the 11th edition will either clarify what RONR means by "published minutes" or will scrap it altogether, and I'd be quite pleased with either outcome.

I'm also not sure why you think "professional, scientific, philosophical, theological, and similar societies" are not "ordinary societies." It seems clear from RONR, 10th ed., pg. 451, lines 23-28 that the term "ordinary society" is used to distinguish "ordinary societies" from legislative bodies.

Now that's a helpful answer. Thanks, Josh.

[George Mervosh]

Now that's a helpful answer. Thanks, Josh.

While I'd listen to Josh any day, Dan and I are totally offended that "No" was not helpful

[David A Foulkes]

While I'd listen to Josh any day, Dan and I are totally offended that "No" was not helpful

Oh George... (and Mr. H).... don't take total offense. You do get top honors for correctness and succinctness.

[Gary c Tesser]

Oh George... (and Mr. H).... don't take total offense. You do get top honors for correctness and succinctness.

More importantly, if you waste your total offense now, you won't have enough later when you really need it.