robert conway Posted July 6, 2010 at 11:29 PM Report Share Posted July 6, 2010 at 11:29 PM I understand that in some associations Proxy voting is necessary, and the bylaws are specific to allow Voting "in person or by proxy".State Statues also allow written ballots unless bylaws limit or prohibit written ballots.Bylaws State " Voting rights of the members shall be set forth in the Articles of incorporation , and such voting rights are specifically incorporated herein (document Bylaws).Board at annual meeting did not get a quorum so decided to send out written ballots to elect officers!!Here is the question at next Annual meeting does a voting member raise a point of order and declare voting by written ballot Invalid? If so what must be done to correct this error.marly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Cisar Posted July 6, 2010 at 11:39 PM Report Share Posted July 6, 2010 at 11:39 PM I understand that in some associations Proxy voting is necessary, and the bylaws are specific to allow Voting "in person or by proxy".State Statues also allow written ballots unless bylaws limit or prohibit written ballots.Bylaws State " Voting rights of the members shall be set forth in the Articles of incorporation , and such voting rights are specifically incorporated herein (document Bylaws).Board at annual meeting did not get a quorum so decided to send out written ballots to elect officers!!Here is the question at next Annual meeting does a voting member raise a point of order and declare voting by written ballot Invalid? If so what must be done to correct this error.marlyWell, if elections are for one year and one year has passed, what would be gained by raising a point of order? If they are for longer, yes raise the point of order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted July 7, 2010 at 12:11 AM Report Share Posted July 7, 2010 at 12:11 AM I understand that in some associations Proxy voting is necessary, and the bylaws are specific to allow Voting "in person or by proxy".State Statues also allow written ballots unless bylaws limit or prohibit written ballots.Bylaws State " Voting rights of the members shall be set forth in the Articles of incorporation , and such voting rights are specifically incorporated herein (document Bylaws).Board at annual meeting did not get a quorum so decided to send out written ballots to elect officers!!Here is the question at next Annual meeting does a voting member raise a point of order and declare voting by written ballot Invalid? If so what must be done to correct this error.marlyI don't see from what little you've quoted from the bylaws that they say anything about the voting rights. If State Statutes allow written ballots, do your bylaws prohibit them then?That said, at an "annual meeting" (going under the assumption that this was a general membership meeting) the Board is not present nor empowered, although the Board members may also be members of the general society as well. But they are at the annual meeting as members, not as the Board.If there was no quorum at the annual meeting, then I don't think the Board (even if it was the annual Board meeting) or membership could take the action of deciding to send out ballots, since that would constitute the transaction of business and as such require a quorum.Finally, a member can raise a Point of Order but would not be the one to declare ballot voting invalid. The Point of Order would be ruled on by the Chair, and if necessarily Appealed, by the assembly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmtcastle Posted July 7, 2010 at 11:57 AM Report Share Posted July 7, 2010 at 11:57 AM State Statues also allow written ballots unless bylaws limit or prohibit written ballots.Board at annual meeting did not get a quorum so decided to send out written ballots to elect officers!!Are you sure you don't mean absentee ballots?It's hard to imagine a state law that would "allow" written ballots or bylaws that would prohibit them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trina Posted July 7, 2010 at 12:01 PM Report Share Posted July 7, 2010 at 12:01 PM ....Board at annual meeting did not get a quorum so decided to send out written ballots to elect officers!!Here is the question at next Annual meeting does a voting member raise a point of order and declare voting by written ballot Invalid? If so what must be done to correct this error.marly....That said, at an "annual meeting" (going under the assumption that this was a general membership meeting) the Board is not present nor empowered, although the Board members may also be members of the general society as well. But they are at the annual meeting as members, not as the Board.If there was no quorum at the annual meeting, then I don't think the Board (even if it was the annual Board meeting) or membership could take the action of deciding to send out ballots, since that would constitute the transaction of business and as such require a quorum.....Regardless of all the other issues (i.e. whether voting by [absentee] ballot is allowed at all), Mr. Foulkes nicely points out a key problem with the 'Board' deciding to send out ballots under these circumstances.So, marly, did this fiasco of an annual meeting happen recently (in which case one shouldn't wait a year until the next annual meeting in order to fix things)?added 'absentee' to clarify above (7/8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert conway Posted July 7, 2010 at 08:35 PM Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2010 at 08:35 PM Regardless of all the other issues (i.e. whether voting by ballot is allowed at all), Mr. Foulkes nicely points out a key problem with the 'Board' deciding to send out ballots under these circumstances.So, marly, did this fiasco of an annual meeting happen recently (in which case one shouldn't wait a year until the next annual meeting in order to fix things)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert conway Posted July 7, 2010 at 08:49 PM Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2010 at 08:49 PM After no quorum board sent out written ballots thirty days later. Stating on ballot vote for the three members on ballot. They received 52% back and declared election valid.I e-mailed those involved that an annual meeting is necessary to conduct this business, and any other business home owners may have.A new meeting is scheduled this month. However, the board has sent additional ballots requesting Voting Member to return proxies to gain a quorum only.No Voting for directors will be allowed as written ballots will suffice. So this meeting will be held as required in bylaws if a quorum can be reached.Can the invalid votes be challenged. This whole process does not seem very democratic now does it?marly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert conway Posted July 7, 2010 at 08:56 PM Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2010 at 08:56 PM Are you sure you don't mean absentee ballots?It's hard to imagine a state law that would "allow" written ballots or bylaws that would prohibit them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert conway Posted July 7, 2010 at 09:03 PM Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2010 at 09:03 PM By laws allow Voting Members to vote in person or by proxy. Needing 51% for quorum general membership annual meeting. (absentee voting)Bylaws allow voting Members to vote in person, by proxy or written ballot to change bylaws needing 67% for change. State Statutes allow all, association opted for the aforementioned.marly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted July 8, 2010 at 12:56 AM Report Share Posted July 8, 2010 at 12:56 AM Can the invalid votes be challenged. This whole process does not seem very democratic now does it?If your Bylaws don't allow for absentee ballots then the vote is null and void, and a Point of Order can be raised at any time. (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 408, line 31 - pg. 409, line 2)By laws allow Voting Members to vote in person or by proxy. Needing 51% for quorum general membership annual meeting. (absentee voting)Bylaws allow voting Members to vote in person, by proxy or written ballot to change bylaws needing 67% for change. State Statutes allow all, association opted for the aforementioned.It seems pretty clear that by "written ballot" you really mean an "absentee ballot." A "written ballot" is simply a piece of paper on which a member writes his vote. Nothing wrong with that. Now, when those ballots start being cast outside of meetings (absentee voting), that's when Bylaw authorization is required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert conway Posted July 8, 2010 at 10:02 PM Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2010 at 10:02 PM If your Bylaws don't allow for absentee ballots then the vote is null and void, and a Point of Order can be raised at any time. (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 408, line 31 - pg. 409, line 2)It seems pretty clear that by "written ballot" you really mean an "absentee ballot." A "written ballot" is simply a piece of paper on which a member writes his vote. Nothing wrong with that. Now, when those ballots start being cast outside of meetings (absentee voting), that's when Bylaw authorization is required.As mentioned Bylaws allow in person or by proxy voting (type of absentee ballot). By voting members for director positions. Directors had a new ballot sent out to voting members. Ballot stated "Proxy Ballot" vote for the three nominations listed below. It was nothing more than a mislabeled written ballot and is not allowed according to my interpretation of these bylaws.Can a point of order be made to, the invalid electees that the election was not legal. And then what?Most of the time this board relies on proxy votes for a quorum to open association annual meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert conway Posted July 8, 2010 at 10:07 PM Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2010 at 10:07 PM I don't see from what little you've quoted from the bylaws that they say anything about the voting rights. If State Statutes allow written ballots, do your bylaws prohibit them then?That said, at an "annual meeting" (going under the assumption that this was a general membership meeting) the Board is not present nor empowered, although the Board members may also be members of the general society as well. But they are at the annual meeting as members, not as the Board.If there was no quorum at the annual meeting, then I don't think the Board (even if it was the annual Board meeting) or membership could take the action of deciding to send out ballots, since that would constitute the transaction of business and as such require a quorum.Finally, a member can raise a Point of Order but would not be the one to declare ballot voting invalid. The Point of Order would be ruled on by the Chair, and if necessarily Appealed, by the assembly.Bylaws do no not prohibit written ballot but does limit to proxy voting or in person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert conway Posted July 8, 2010 at 10:16 PM Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2010 at 10:16 PM Regardless of all the other issues (i.e. whether voting by ballot is allowed at all), Mr. Foulkes nicely points out a key problem with the 'Board' deciding to send out ballots under these circumstances.So, marly, did this fiasco of an annual meeting happen recently (in which case one shouldn't wait a year until the next annual meeting in order to fix things)?Board has sent out proxy ballots asking for voting members to 1) Allow President to vote for them to obtain quorum or 2) Place the name of your proxy choice on proxy ballot. Trying to get a Association annual meeting called as required in bylaws.However, Board claims there will not be any voting for Directors at this meeting....because written ballots were counted and New Directors have been elected..marly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted July 9, 2010 at 01:43 AM Report Share Posted July 9, 2010 at 01:43 AM As mentioned Bylaws allow in person or by proxy voting (type of absentee ballot).No, proxy voting is not a form of absentee ballot. Both are forms of absentee voting. Proxy voting involves a member having another person show up to the meeting and vote on their behalf. Absentee ballots are ballots that are simply mailed in. A written ballot is a piece of paper with a member's vote. Written ballots are not necessarily absentee ballots. It is entirely possible to have a ballot vote with members at a meeting.By voting members for director positions. Directors had a new ballot sent out to voting members. Ballot stated "Proxy Ballot" vote for the three nominations listed below. It was nothing more than a mislabeled written ballot and is not allowed according to my interpretation of these bylaws.An absentee ballot is not a proxy. Absentee ballots are not allowed unless specifically authorized by the Bylaws.Can a point of order be made to, the invalid electees that the election was not legal. And then what?Yes. The chair would rule on the Point of Order, and his ruling may be appealed. A majority vote overturns the chair's ruling. This would need to happen at a meeting of the general membership. If the election is determined to be null and void, a new election would need to be held.Most of the time this board relies on proxy votes for a quorum to open association annual meeting.This is not proper unless the Bylaws count proxies toward the quorum. Additionally, be sure to remember that proxies and absentee ballots are two different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanh49 Posted July 9, 2010 at 09:58 PM Report Share Posted July 9, 2010 at 09:58 PM be sure to remember that proxies and absentee ballots are two different things.Not always, there is a form of proxy voting called a directed proxy in which the proxy holder is told by the proxy issuer how to vote on a question yes, no, or abstain [the latter being useful if proxies do count toward a quorum] or for whom to vote in the case of an election.I think that most people would see the proxy forum in the case of a directed proxy as a kind of absentee ballot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert conway Posted July 10, 2010 at 09:48 PM Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 at 09:48 PM No, proxy voting is not a form of absentee ballot. Both are forms of absentee voting. Proxy voting involves a member having another person show up to the meeting and vote on their behalf. Absentee ballots are ballots that are simply mailed in. A written ballot is a piece of paper with a member's vote. Written ballots are not necessarily absentee ballots. It is entirely possible to have a ballot vote with members at a meeting.An absentee ballot is not a proxy. Absentee ballots are not allowed unless specifically authorized by the Bylaws.Yes. The chair would rule on the Point of Order, and his ruling may be appealed. A majority vote overturns the chair's ruling. This would need to happen at a meeting of the general membership. If the election is determined to be null and void, a new election would need to be held.This is not proper unless the Bylaws count proxies toward the quorum. Additionally, be sure to remember that proxies and absentee ballots are two different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted July 11, 2010 at 01:56 AM Report Share Posted July 11, 2010 at 01:56 AM Not always, there is a form of proxy voting called a directed proxy in which the proxy holder is told by the proxy issuer how to vote on a question yes, no, or abstain [the latter being useful if proxies do count toward a quorum] or for whom to vote in the case of an election.I think that most people would see the proxy forum in the case of a directed proxy as a kind of absentee ballot.Alan, if a member uses a proxy, the member is sending someone to vote on his behalf. The actual method of voting on the motion will not yet have been determined, unless the assembly has a rule on the matter. The vote may well be taken by voice, in which case I think it is clear that this is not an absentee ballot, as a ballot vote involves secrecy.I don't know about people in general, but I believe most people on this forum would not see a directed proxy as a kind of absentee ballot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted July 11, 2010 at 02:42 AM Report Share Posted July 11, 2010 at 02:42 AM Alan, if a member uses a proxy, the member is sending someone to vote on his behalf.That's right. "A proxy is a power of attorney given by one person to another to vote in his stead; the term also designates the person who holds the power of attorney." - RONR(10th ed.), p. 414, l. 15-17. The actual method of voting on the motion will not yet have been determined, unless the assembly has a rule on the matter. The vote may well be taken by voice, in which case I think it is clear that this is not an absentee ballot, as a ballot vote involves secrecy.Also, the vote might not even take place. I don't know about people in general, but I believe most people on this forum would not see a directed proxy as a kind of absentee ballot.I believe you believe right. However, I'm guessing that Alan is trying to say the two are related in the way that they are both intended to facilitate a vote being cast on behalf of someone who is not at the meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim Goldsworthy Posted July 11, 2010 at 03:58 AM Report Share Posted July 11, 2010 at 03:58 AM I believe most people on this forum would not see a directed proxy as a kind of absentee ballot.To the contrary:I think most people on this Q&A Forum agree with page 409.Page 409 lumps (a.) mail voting, fax voting, and (b.) proxy voting, as two forms of ABSENTEE VOTING (see the paragraph beginning on page 408).It does not matter how "directed" the proxy is. The member who is "not present" is "absentee" when "his" vote is "cast."And that absentee-ness is the violation of the fundamental principle of parliamentary law which RONR cites.Even as the will of the voter is faithfully fulfilled by his proxy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted July 11, 2010 at 09:26 AM Report Share Posted July 11, 2010 at 09:26 AM To the contrary:I think most people on this Q&A Forum agree with page 409.Page 409 lumps (a.) mail voting, fax voting, and (b.) proxy voting, as two forms of ABSENTEE VOTING (see the paragraph beginning on page 408).It does not matter how "directed" the proxy is. The member who is "not present" is "absentee" when "his" vote is "cast."And that absentee-ness is the violation of the fundamental principle of parliamentary law which RONR cites.Even as the will of the voter is faithfully fulfilled by his proxy.There are only two words in that phrase "absentee ballot", and you had to go and pick the wrong one to focus on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted July 11, 2010 at 10:46 PM Report Share Posted July 11, 2010 at 10:46 PM However, I'm guessing that Alan is trying to say the two are related in the way that they are both intended to facilitate a vote being cast on behalf of someone who is not at the meeting.Well, then let's all just stick with saying that absentee ballots and proxy voting are both forms of absentee voting. To the contrary:I think most people on this Q&A Forum agree with page 409.Page 409 lumps (a.) mail voting, fax voting, and (b.) proxy voting, as two forms of ABSENTEE VOTING (see the paragraph beginning on page 408).It does not matter how "directed" the proxy is. The member who is "not present" is "absentee" when "his" vote is "cast."And that absentee-ness is the violation of the fundamental principle of parliamentary law which RONR cites.Even as the will of the voter is faithfully fulfilled by his proxy.I agree that voting by mail or fax and proxy voting (directed or otherwise) are both forms of absentee voting. That does not mean that a proxy vote (directed or otherwise) is a form of absentee ballot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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