Motion

[Guest Pete]

Is is OK [for example] to say...

I move that we do not have a company picnic this year.

My gut says "NO" as I was trained that motions be expressed in the positive "ONLY"

[Robert B Fish]

There are cases where a motion may be expressed in the negative but not where the same result could be accomplished by doing nothing. For example, you might move to cancel the contract with the picnic company, to instruct the picnic committee that no picnic will be held this year, to rescind the previously authorized budget for the picnic, etc.

However, a motion "that we not have a picnic this year" is dilatory and not in order.

-Bob

[Guest Nancy Luehring]

Can a vote be called, after a motion and a second, when there is an unanswered questions on the floor?

[George Mervosh]

There are cases where a motion may be expressed in the negative but not where the same result could be accomplished by doing nothing. For example, you might move to cancel the contract with the picnic company, to instruct the picnic committee that no picnic will be held this year, to rescind the previously authorized budget for the picnic, etc.

However, a motion "that we not have a picnic this year" is dilatory and not in order.

-Bob

Bob might agree that if a member moves NOT to have the picnic, the presiding officer should readily assist the member in making a motion that would be in order, such as a motion to rescind (RONR, p. 293ff), instead of summarily ruling his motion out of order and moving on to something else.

[George Mervosh]

Can a vote be called, after a motion and a second, when there is an unanswered questions on the floor?

If 2/3 of the members wish to end debate and vote on the pending question, and the motion is properly made, yes.

[David A Foulkes]

Can a vote be called, after a motion and a second, when there is an unanswered questions on the floor?

Nancy - why don't you go ahead and start a new topic with your question, so the answers don't get mixed up with the question in this topic, okay?

[alanh49]

There are cases where a motion may be expressed in the negative but not where the same result could be accomplished by doing nothing. For example, you might move to cancel the contract with the picnic company, to instruct the picnic committee that no picnic will be held this year, to rescind the previously authorized budget for the picnic, etc.

However, a motion "that we not have a picnic this year" is dilatory and not in order.

-Bob

I disagree if adopting the motion will change things from having a picnic to not a picnic how is it dilatory.

[David A Foulkes]

I disagree if adopting the motion will change things from having a picnic to not a picnic how is it dilatory.

I think it comes down to this: if the only way you have a picnic is by adopting a motion to have a picnic, then to not have a picnic all you need to do is not make that motion (eg do nothing).

If there are no plans to paint the barn red, there is no need to adopt a motion not to paint the barn red to not paint it.

[Guest F.R.Pond]

If there are no plans to paint the barn red, there is no need to adopt a motion not to paint the barn red to not paint it.

Yes, but if it is customary to paint the barn red (or have a picnic) every year, is a motion not to paint the barn red (or not have a picnic) this year dilatory?

[Kim Goldsworthy]

Is is OK [for example] to say:

"I move that we do not have a company picnic this year"?

My gut says "NO" as I was trained that motions be expressed in the positive "ONLY"

Here is a rule of thumb for you to determine if your "gut" is correct.

Q. Is the motion so moved IDENTICAL IN EFFECT to doing nothing at all (i.e., making no motion)?

If yes, then the motion is out of order. - You never vote to keep the status quo the status quo.

It is a waste of time.

And a negative vote never implies that the defeated motion therefore will trigger the very action it attempted to thwart.

If no, then, chances are, it is in-order. - It will change the status quo into a new state.

[David A Foulkes]

Yes, but if it is customary to paint the barn red (or have a picnic) every year, is a motion not to paint the barn red (or not have a picnic) this year dilatory?

Since Pete did not mention custom in his original post, I did not address that point.

As RONR honors custom in parliamentary procedure during meetings (although when custom is in conflict with "the rules", and a Point of Order is raised, custom falls to the ground) I suspect it deals more with the order of meetings, not the general behavior of the organization outside of meetings.

So if Pete's organization "customarily" holds an annual picnic, without any decision to do so at any meeting, I would say that in order to not hold a picnic they simply just let that occasion pass by. As Mr. Goldsworthy and Mr. Fish point out, so doing would be equivalent to a motion (adopted) not to hold a picnic, and such a motion would thus be out of order. Further, if a motion to not hold a picnic is defeated, it does not mandate that a picnic will be held. A vote to not paint the barn red so defeated does not mandate painting it blue, or at all.

I further suspect that Pete is not asking about having a company picnic, but has some other question in mind and uses that as an example. Perhaps he will return and offer further information for us.

[Tim Wynn]

Yes, but if it is customary to paint the barn red (or have a picnic) every year, is a motion not to paint the barn red (or not have a picnic) this year dilatory?

Such a motion would be incorrect... unless some purpose would be served by adoption of such a motion. For instance, the assembly may want to pass a motion to NOT paint the barn, for the purpose of restricting a subordinate board from ordering the painting of the barn. However, in such a case, the same effect could be attained by voting down a motion "that the barn be painted."

At first glance, it can seem strange that a motion of such a one-time nature should have continuing force. It seems similar to a motion that the grass not be cut, which will most likely have to be rescinded next week. However, there are plenty of situations where the motion that the barn never be painted could be perfectly reasonable... if, say, it belonged to Picaso and had random doodles drawn on it from his own hand.

Even if custom doesn't dictate that an event will occur, a motion containing a negative idea may have some merit, such as "that we not hold any aquatic activities in the Gulf of Mexico, this year." However, it is preferable to word it without the negative statement.

If making no motion at all cannot achieve the same result, the motion has a purpose.

The question is answered in RONR(10th ed.), p. 99, l. 33 - p. 100, l. 9.